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Author Topic: Sabino Engineering Build log  (Read 19522 times)

Jerry C

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2013, 09:20:08 am »

Hi Ken, while reading this post something jumped out at me. There's something that doesn't sound right about your gas tank filling procedure. You're not actually filling with a gas but with a liquid. Any "expansion" occurs immediately the first bit of liquid goes into the gas tank until pressure in both filling can and gas tank are equalised after that liquid goes by gravity into the gas tank. When the gas tank is full liquid will splutter from around the filler adapter nozzle. During filling there should be no "venting noises" only, if you listen carefully, the tolnk toink sound of liquid drops falling into the gas tank and the tink tink sound of gas in gas form going up into the gas filling can, just as you would if you were filling with water. When tank is full it shouldn't be very cold and should certainly not have "frost" on it. Cooling of the gas tank only occurs when gas is being used as the latent heat of evaporation needed to turn liquid to gas is sourced from the outer part of the gas tank. You may feel the filling can get slightly cool during emptying and to speed up the filling wrap your hands around it. I have a similar piece of kit and my gas tank takes about 45 to 60 seconds to fill. My launch is an open boat and I fill my tank in situ(against general advise) the small quantity of gas that leaks when tank is full and filler removed doesn't go pop on lighting the burner. If, as occational occurs, the burner goes out and fills the boat with gas I just tip it out and relight. No pops or singed hands and eyebrows!  That does however occur if you tilt a full tank when lit (launching boat) and as a result the burner is supplied with liquid and you get a big yellow flame out of the flue. Scary but not a problem. Just turn off the gas. As to your leaking gas control valve, I can't speak cos I don't have one but I would find and stop that leak BEFORE I raised steam.
Best of luck, it's looking great.
Jerry.

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2013, 10:21:39 am »

Quote
Once I get steam up and test the rest of the system, I'll hook up an air supply to the gas control valve system and use some soapy water to test the joints.  I suspect it's coming from the control valve stem but might be the inlet joint.

  I notice this is posted on April 1st.
 
  Don't worry about leaks, just keep it all well polished.
 
  Regards  Ian.
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derekwarner

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2013, 11:27:11 am »

Landlocked.........sorry ...I missed a point in your earlier posting......is your gas regulator a BIX029?........
Whilst I understand & agree with the comments/recommendations from Jerry C as below..........if you have an issue with the spindle sealing of the gas regulator....take it up with the manufacturer
It will not be self healing >>:-(  ...nor self correcting  <*<  ......Derek
 

 
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Derek Warner

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Jerry C

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2013, 12:02:08 pm »

Ken don't shout at me but if you are using the bix029 then I think you may have the gas feed and burner feed the wrong way round. It's not too easy to see on the last pic. The gas feed from the tank should be on the nipple nearest the adjusting screw. Derek can you post a pic of the bix029 fitting diagram?
Ken if I've got it wrong I apologise profusely.
Jerry.

Jerry C

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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2013, 12:54:12 pm »

I quote Professor Henry Higgins, "Damn, Damn, Damn, Damn!"


Jerry, you called it.  The diagram that came with it is clear but I obviously didn't mentally make the flip when inverted it with the screw on top.


Having now successfully filled the tank, I understand the liquid vs gas discussion.  Once I got well into the filling, the venting sound that had me so concerned ceased.


Thanks for everyone's help.  Tonight's busy but stay tuned.


Ken
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Jerry C

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2013, 01:12:47 pm »

It's easily done Ken. I had to look at it several times and it messed with my head before I opened my mouth and put my foot in it. Glad you're sorted. Interesting boiler you have there with the burner other end to the sight glass etc. Did you ask for it that way specially? I found with the burner on 'tother end a lot of heat comes out of the burner air slit impinged on the lower sight glass fitting causing water in tube to boil. I got round it by putting an aluminium plate between the two. I also put a fine copper wire inside the glass. It works but we don't know why.
Jerry.

Landlocked

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Custom Boiler
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2013, 01:56:30 am »

Jerry,


Yes, the boiler is semi-custom.


Because of the configuration of the prototype, the steamboat Sabino, my engine and funnel locations were fixed without enough room for the burner between the boiler and the engine.  So I needed to have the burner at the front end.  Mike worked with me to extend the funnel end so the steam valve and the sight glass could be visible on the aft end.


The fine wire in the sight glass might be providing a wicking surface to disrupt the surface tension of a steam bubble.  I can't come up with a scenario for it to transfer enough heat around to impact the boiling rate within the tube.


Ken
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Landlocked

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Another Try
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2013, 03:31:08 am »


[size=78%]Well,[/size]


One step forward and a couple backwards/sideways.


Got steam up - sorta.  The first steam I saw was the vapor coming off the mineral wool I had wetted during the filling process.


Jumped the gun and didn't let pressure build high enough before I started to play.  Since I didn't fill the level to high in the sight glass, I ran out of level before I really learned enough.  I'll try again tomorrow night.


I think my timing is off on the TVR1A -- even after I rocked it back and forth to clear the water, it didn't want to run reliably.  Might still be a water issue but I did yank on the linkage a lot when I was trying to sort out the electronics.  I did learn that I didn't lap my inlet valve covers well enough.


Before I re-do my tubing for the gas control valve, I'm going to get new union nuts/nipples.   I've learned that not all manufacturers' fitting are interchangeable and in my silver brazing learning curve, I did melt some fittings so I might have done some mismatching.


Ken











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hammer

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2013, 08:47:16 pm »

Ken it will be very satisfying when you do get it going.  O0 O0 O0
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Landlocked

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End of Season Status
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2013, 12:11:13 am »

Well,


It's spring, sort of.  We had snow here in May.   Outdoor chores and fun have shut down the pond yacht project until October (but a long heat wave in August could result in some progress).


While waiting for replacement unions, I broke things down and tested my TVR1A on air.  Discovered many key bolts had loosened up between the upper section and the lower.  I have tiny open end wrenches on order.  I can't use my tube type spanners (note my universal mixing of terms) with the exhaust/intake manifolds in place.


I have a short list of design improvements to go with my attempts to fix my errors when things restart in Oct.


I met (sort of) my goals for the past winter.  Mechanicals assembled and tested (fortunately I was not specific on my list -- I never said "successfully"  :-) ).  The float test was the only item lacking and I could use the tub if things get too cold too quickly this autumn.


Thanks to all for the hints, help, and encouragement. 


Enjoy the summer!


Ken/Landlocked
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Landlocked

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Dog Days of Summer
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2013, 04:03:57 am »

Well,


The summer heat wave has arrived, a little later than normal.  Peaches are picked and the first apples are coming in.  I'm working on re-caulking the seams for the juice box for the apple cider press.  Caulk isn't setting up.  Tube must have been too old.  I'll give it one more day before scrapping it off.


Meantime, I've done some minor work on the project.  I decided not to try to mimic prototype insulation and did some (semi-) fancy rope work.  I did continuous half-hitches around the longer piping sections leaving a spiral ridge and a turk's head on the upper section of the lubricator.


I redid the feedpump bypass valve/boiler inlet piping area (pictures to follow next time I pull the power plant out of the hull).  After the checkvalve didn't seat with the elbow in the horizontal orientation and blew the boiler into the water tank, I decided reorient it to vertical and use elbows and sleeve couplings to pull things together.  Made the piping run from the preheater in the condensate pump much simpler/straighter.


I cleaned up some stray solder on the gas fittings and hopefully they'll now stay tight .  I'm stripping the flux off of my silver rods and relying on what I apply prior to heating up.  Hopefully this will keep the solder where it belongs.


After a preliminary float test, it'll be back to testing the mechanicals. 


Stay tuned.


Landlocked/Ken
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Landlocked

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Rearranged feed piping
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2013, 03:58:50 am »

Here's yesterday's promised picture of my redone feed piping and insulation.  I changed my plans and decided to do some air testing before the float test.  As you can see when compared to my earlier post, the big "S" curve in the preheater outlet is gone.


I was glad to confirm that I could wiggle out the plant with most of the piping intact. l have to disconnect the feedtank supply and return, the gas line near the rear-mounted tank, and the servos.


Exhaust pipe routing is still to be determined.  I'm currently thinking of running it into the stbd side of the funnel with a union.  I think I can thread a 90 degree elbow onto the end of the union threads followed by a pipe running part way up the funnel.


Landlocked/Ken
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Landlocked

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Rough Running
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2013, 03:11:33 am »

Another hot day so -- to the cool cellar and my steam plant.


Tried to run it on air.  Not good.  Ran well with direction lever down but barely moved with it up.  <:(   Similar to last Spring's steam test.


Checked coarse timing, no issues.  Took off aft end cover and tweaked valve position.  I think it ended up back where I started.  Still no joy


I'll have to remove the boiler from the base plate to get to the front cover and maybe the feedpump as well.  Not in the mood to try anything more tonight.  >>:-(


Landlocked/Ken
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derekwarner

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2013, 03:46:59 am »

. ;) ...& Ken says......"I'll have to remove the boiler from the base plate to get to the front cover and maybe the feedpump as well"
As you know Ken....there are a few experienced members here with the TVR engines........may be best to consider their thoughts/comments first........
However from your points, simple maintenance needs to be able to be carried out without major structural removal of components........
This is not a criticism ........just a learning point for all members & me included....keep us posted...............Derek
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Derek Warner

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Landlocked

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Tyranny of Space
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2013, 01:49:50 pm »

Balancing access to components with fitting things into the prototype's available space is always a challenge.  I just didn't think think adjusting the timing was simple maintenance.  It ran ok on air last fall before I started working the live steam part.  I had a lot of bolts loosen up when testing on steam last Spring. 

As a submariner, space for maintenance was usually not there.  It seems like we had to always had to remove three layers of stuff to get to the part we wanted to work on.

I needed to remove the boiler at some point to paint the floorboards, so it's not all wasted effort.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2013, 03:15:24 pm »

 
Topic renamed.  :-)
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Landlocked

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Exhaust Routed into Stack
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2013, 03:27:24 am »


It was just under 100 degree F today and will be for the next four days so I getting more project time.  I'll wish for the heat in about 3 months.


I've run-in my engine on air for about 3 more hours.  Much better.  Tomorrow I'm going to re-solder the union ring onto the inlet pipe and reassemble for a steam test. 

I decided to run my exhaust up my stack.


Tapped a 1/4-40 hole in the side, threaded a union through it and into an elbow.  Internal exhaust pipe is currently taller than the stack but that's temporary.  It allowed me to hold the elbow in position to engage the threads as the union penetrated the pipe. 


I have to tilt the exhaust aft to match the original so there's still some tweaking to be done.  Bend it, or cut on the 1/2 angle and solder back together, or make sleeved joint from a botched up angle fitting from the big world and just cut the pipe into straight sections?  I'm leaning to the sleeve idea since there's two decks for the pipe to penetrate and should/could make post steam up reassembly easier.


Thoughts?


Landlocked/Ken





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Landlocked

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Steam Test
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2013, 04:00:28 am »

Too many outdoor chores during the holiday weekend but final got a chance to steam it up.


Looks like my face polishing efforts didn't solve my gas line leaks.  Soapy water showed relatively small bubbling.  Steam didn't want to come up.  Not sure if it was from restricted flow or low gas levels. 


I jumped out the pressure regulator and steamed up with my test connection from the re-filled tank to the burner. 


Pressure built up ok to 30# and started the run in.  Feedpump pumped well in an open circuit mode and I started to close down on the bypass valve but not quickly since I wanted level to come down a bit more in the gage.  Pressure didn't want to stay above 20# with throttle 90 degrees open.  Without being in the water, not sure what that means at this point. 


The solder joint (ring type) between the steam line and the throttle valve/lubricator inlet failed.  Checking with Jerry at Clevedon if I can shift to a more standard cone.  Trial fit up seemed good but only a thin contact line.  Maybe some grinding compound to soften the edge?


Thoughts?


Ken



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ooyah/2

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Re: Steam Test
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2013, 11:10:36 am »

Quote

Pressure built up ok to 30# and started the run in.  Feedpump pumped well in an open circuit mode and I started to close down on the bypass valve but not quickly since I wanted level to come down a bit more in the gage.  Pressure didn't want to stay above 20# with throttle 90 degrees open.  Without being in the water, not sure what that means at this point. 

Ken,

The boiler pressure will fall when running your engine on the bench, the steam is going thro' your engine without doing any work, when you get the boat into the water you will find that the pressure will stabilise as the engine starts to work.

I can't comment on your troubles with gas leaks but how about a small drop of thread lock sealant on the threads,
I use Loctite 243 ( Blue in colour ) don't use P.T.F.E tape as the L.P.G. melts it and it will gum up in the pipe to the jet.

You seam to be having trouble with the connection to the Lubricator, how about a coned nipple Silver soldered on to the pipe line, if you are unable to silver solder you can soft solder the nipples as at the pressure that your engine runs this will be enough.

George.
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hammer

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2013, 12:54:09 pm »

Ken this is the method I have used. With no problems on all my gas lines. Geoff
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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2013, 11:12:28 pm »

One step forward, one sideways, one backward -- oh wait, that's the box step.  :}
No concerns anymore on performance of boiler.  I was too new to recognize a partially plug jet.  Not sure what I swallowed but boy, what a difference!

Any thoughts about leaving the BIX gas regulator out of the circuit are gone.  I couldn't keep the safety from lifting with the engine spinning as fast as I dared.Lost a valve linkage, looks like the bolt backed out.  Once cool I'll re-tighten.  Fortunately on the non-feedpump end.  Is this a routine thing with TVR1As?  Thinking about thread lock but not sure how to keep it off the sliding faces.  Maybe if I applied it from the back side.

used a nipple union on the steam inlet to the throttle instead of the ring.  I used a little fine grinding paste followed by rubbing compound.  Not sure if I really did anything.  Joint seems to be working OK. 

My repair to the outlet side with the ring is holding.  Not much length on the TVR1A inlet manifold to slide a nipple, would place the joint right next to the solder joint for the first steam chest.  I would HATE to de-solder that while trying to attach the ring.

I'm a little concerned about the rate at which my condensate tank is filling.  My feed pre-heater coil may be acting too much like a cooling coil and the steam isn't going up the exhaust.

Not having a whistle (yet) to bleed the residual steam off with, I've learned to disconnect the water supply to keep the collapsing steam bubble from drawing water through the feed pathway and leaving me with a high out of sight boiler.

I think I'm going to try soldering new gas lines with nipples one more time.  I'd like to claim my silver soldering technique has improved but... {-)   If they fail again, I'll look at Hammer's technique (I'll need a source for tiny 'o' rings).  Don't think I need thread lock to help with the leaking (but I may need it for vibration reasons),  the soap bubbles are from the pipe area on the back of the nut.


Ken/Landlocked




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hammer

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2013, 07:43:33 pm »

Ken, O ring available from Polly Engineering on this side of the pond. So must be a source your side. Geoff 
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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2013, 10:25:31 pm »

Geoff,


The model live steam hobby, both boats and traction engines, seems to be much more popular on your side of the pond.  I'm sure there are "O" ring suppliers for all sizes over here but finding them retail is not easy.


I've already used Polly Engineering, Clevedon, MaccSteam, and Forest Classics as suppliers. Shipping and time really isn't that bad.  Thank goodness for PayPal.


I have my new gas lines soldered up.  I've changed fluxes and my soldering went much better.  Picked up more camp fuel and I'll have another go at it this weekend. 


Right now I'm watching America's Cup.  Doesn't look good for the home team.


Ken
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kiwimodeller

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2013, 10:28:58 am »

Ken, it looks just great from this side of the world!! :} :-))
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