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Author Topic: Sabino Engineering Build log  (Read 19509 times)

Landlocked

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It Works!!!
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2013, 05:56:16 pm »

 %% {-) :embarrassed: %% %%


It works!!! Everything in the circuit except the feed tank and electronics!


Some concerns mid run when I couldn't maintain steam pressure with the regulator back off but then realized I hadn't fully opened the gas tank valve and the gas cooling had dropped the supply rate to the regulator down from light off.


Some concerns about condensate tank capacity.  Looks like the current limiting factor at about 5 minutes.  I'll do a precision capacity measurement and then get you'alls opinion if I need a bigger tank (although I suspect I'll try to figure out a buddy tank system, given the pre-heater I've built into this one).


Thanks for everyone's help and encouragement -- on to the test float!


Landlocked/Ken





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Landlocked

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Condensate Tank Capacity
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2013, 11:45:10 pm »

Hi,


I measured my condensate tank capacity because I was concerned it was filling up too fast.


Measured out at 140cc's.  Is this too small for my 3 1/2 inch MaccSteam boiler w/ a feedpump?


Thoughts?


Landlocked/Ken
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Jerry C

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2013, 10:32:48 am »

Ken, my de oiler tank is 70cc. My plant similar to yours. 70 cc perfectly adequate for up to 50 minute run. So what's the difference?
1) my tank is lagged and what isn't lagged is polished brass. Yours is unlagged and satin black, perfectly configured to radiate heat causing condensation.
2) the exhaust steam pipe from exhaust manifold on engine is black plastic, which also radiates heat causing exhaust steam temp to drop.
3) my feed water heater(economiser) is in the funnel, yours is in the de oiler tank, further cooling the exhaust steam. Many people use the de oiler to heat the feedwater without issues though.

Conclusions:- lag all steam manifolds, pipes from boiler to de oiler exhaust and de oiler tank itself. (In steam, See "Jerrys Steam Launch Wear" about page 3 for how I did it.

I think all the above will improve the duration of your de oiler. Best if luck.
Jerry.

Landlocked

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Insulation
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2013, 02:04:15 am »


Jerry,


I was coming to the conclusion that the lack of insulation was the issue.  Exhaust manifold for certain (and I'll re-do the inlet manifold and steam piping.  I did them and then I had the union ring soldering issues).  I don't think the rubber hose between the exhaust manifold is a problem.  If it was hard plastic yes but rubber itself is an insulating material.  I'll probably start with cotton twine again before trying something as impressive as your work   :-)) [size=78%] [/size]
(although I discovered that my cotton twine has some synthetics in it when I didn't trim the steam line back far enough and it melted instead of burning  >:-o ).


My de-oiler design is probably not helpful either.  I put a bend inside the tank on the inlet pipe to try to "fling" the oil out.  That bend points down and back and ends about 1/2 way down the tank.  Once it's half full, the exhaust is bubbling through the condensate!


I don't think the standard vertical slats design would look very good in my case. I'm thinking thin plywood over the ceramic wool.  I might try two layers in spots if I can do it without having to do major piping re-work. 

It's been a long time since I studied black body heat radiation.  Black paint and heat absorption I understand but is black paint and heat radiation really a significant factor?

System is back in the boat and electronics hooked up.  I'm going to do a basic float test to check trim to calculate how much weight I can budget for the superstructure and then it's initial sea trials. Hopefully this weekend but the heat wave is breaking and there are outside chores waiting.

Landlocked/Ken
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Landlocked

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Weights
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2013, 02:40:48 pm »

It floats!! :}


The good news is not that it floats but it took 6 lbs to bring her down to her marks.  Boiler and feedtank were 1/2 in the sight glasses.  Might be able to squeeze in another pint between the two.


Should leave me plenty of margin for the superstructure -- plan on using a lot of thin plywood and styrene.


Hopefully it's not an omen but found string algae on the prop (or should I say wheel in proper steamboat fashion?) when I lifted her out.


Hope to get a short steaming test this weekend.  Pond is too small for anything more than confirming basic functions.


Here's a couple of pics.  The hull is all wrong but I thought "African Queen" with reviewing them.


Landlocked/Ken
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Landlocked

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First Underway
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2013, 04:19:46 am »

It steams!  :-)  It steers! :-) It crashes into the side of the pond! :}
First test sail went well aside from minor annoyances of a plugged orifice and a loose grub screw on the shaft coupling  (fortunately on the accessible side Ė may need to add some openings in the gas tank deck).
Everything worked well. The pond was just too small.
Rapid throttle changes generated a lot of splash with the wash. Once sheís trimmed down to her lines, should be less.
Rudder response seemed adequate.Hard to tell in the small space.

I may give her one more test and then Iíll start working on insulating the de-oiler, the steam lines, and start building the superstructure.

Noticed a comment on the forum about condensation issues if thereís too much distance from the boiler to the whistle.Thinking of mounting the whistle control valve next to the boiler and then mounting the whistle by the stack. 

Has anyone had experience with that amount of distance between valve and whistle?

The challenge will then be to figure how to slide the superstructure in place over 10 inches of unsupported tubing with the whistle in place.

With luck, Iíll be able to thread it through the stack standoff shielding on the second deck and then secure the whistle with a union.

Thoughts?


Landlocked/Ken




Layout corrected. Please use the  'Preview' before you transmit.
Ken

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KNO3

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2013, 09:52:30 am »

Where's the video?
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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2013, 05:40:33 pm »

 :(( None, operator error due to insufficient training.
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Landlocked

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Back to work
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2013, 03:38:12 am »


I had to take a couple of weeks off.  I've developed "trigger finger" in my left index finger (I'm a lefty).  Looks like surgery in the future but I gave up on "rest" and am working around the pain. Hard to yield a knife when you can't put down pressure using your index finger.

I've built a jumper from the feedpump to the boiler, cutting out the pre-heater.  It's my backup plan in case insulating the condensate tank doesn't give enough add'l steaming time.


I've started insulating the condensate tank.  I'm going to use ceramic wool covered by 1/32 mm plywood.  I'm using standoff strips to glue the plywood in place with the wool cutout around them. 


Things are cooling off quickly outside but I hope to get some more test steams.


Stay tuned.


Ken/Landlocked
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2013, 01:48:02 pm »

Ken,
If you were closer I could recommend a very good surgeon, I had "trigger finger" in my left ring finger years back. Went through the three cortisone shots routine, but ended up with surgery. Have had no problems since with that finger, but am now having problems with my right hand so am back to the cortisone shots.
Regards,
Gerald.
 
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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2013, 01:55:36 am »

Gerald,


Thanks for the news the surgery works.  Mine is scheduled for the 31st.  Two fingers, index and ring, both on left.  Wish I knew what caused it.  The cortisone shot made the index worse.


Ken
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Landlocked

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Condenser Insulation
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2013, 03:36:25 am »

Making progress with the condenser insulation.  Three sides and one end done.  The other end piece will need to be split into two.  Can't slide over the unions.


I'll build a cardboard template for the top.  Took me three tries to get the one end done and it only has one penetration!  {:-{


Stuck my arm into the "trial basin" to clean leaves out of the filter basket.  I will NOT be doing anymore sea trials this Fall.  I might get an external steam test if I get the insulation done before Indian Summer comes and goes (and my surgery comes.  Once the tank is done, I'll do the string work on the manifolds and piping.  Hopefully the fingers will play nice and let me do it. 


Here's the current status.


Ken/Landlocked





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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2013, 01:50:59 am »

This weekend felt like I did the box step again Ė one forward, one sideways, one backwards, and then sideways again.


I finished insulating the tank.  Technique of gluing to the tank mounted strips worked well.  Challenge was the seams where the covering plywood met.  Used tape as clamps but not as even as I would have like (one step forward). 


Since I sized the tank to fit between my frames, I had to trim away about half of the frame width to accommodate the extra length.  Here was where I took a step backwards.  My Dremel sander did a great job but when trying to square out the corners with a small chisel (and here is where Iím going to blame my awkward, trigger finger induced grip), I didnít control it well enough, it slipped off the frame and straight through the hull.  Any remote chances of another float test this season was gone.  I may sister the frames but Iím thinking the fiberglass mat and epoxy coating had made the hull into a monocoque structure.


Leaving the hull repair for another day, I turned to the various pieces of piping.  The feed lines fitted up ok but the thickness of the bottom insulation had raised the tank up to where the steam outlet elbow interfered with the feedpump outlet.  (one step sideways).  I could have used a double male union fitting but that would have probably necessitated a new discharge line.  Making lemonade from lemons, I decided to add a 90 degree valve to be able to use steam back pressure to blow the condensate tank contents out the drain tube.  Screwing the valve directly into the tank bushing would still not have given me the required clearance so I used the dbl union and a female sleeve to stack the valve a little higher.


But, hereís the other step sideways.  Now the steam outlet interfered with the steam line to the engine!  After annealing the outlet line, I was able to get enough clearance which was good, I didnít want to strip the insulation from the steam supply line to anneal it again!


Iím still hopeful Iíll be about to do a steam up on the porch and get an assessment of my new condensate tank fill time, both with and without using the pre-heater, before the weatherís too cold.


Stay tuned.
Ken/Landlocked
 
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Landlocked

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Back in Action
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2013, 12:30:34 am »

Greetings all,


I'm back in action after my surgery -- some residual issues that should eventually go away but much better.  However, I was disappointed to notice that I still had the most current post -- from 27 Oct -- in this part of the forum! Somebody has to be doing something interesting. 


Even though my last post shows my "final" piping configuration after insulating my separator, I'm rebuilding it again, already.


After reading XRAD's post about his condenser, I realized the through flow of feed through my separator was nearly as much as his cooling flow.  I had been foolish and sending all of the feed through the tank and then splitting the return flow from the part going into the boiler.  Now wonder my separator was filling up so fast!  It was trying to be a condenser.


So, I've checked and there's room to split the flow before the condenser.  I'll need to redo three of the lines - which of course I've already wrapped in twine.


Stay tuned.


Landlocked/Ken
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derekwarner

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2013, 01:04:22 am »

:o & Ken says......"I'll need to redo three of the lines - which of course I've already wrapped in twine"

Never fear Ken...I have 100 yards of genuine OZ 100% cotton twine left........just holla if you need some  O0

PS...it is so old it is prior to metrication so is a nominal 0.058" diameter  {-) .....Derek
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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
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www.ils.org.au

Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2013, 11:37:13 pm »

I thought you guys down under used wool for everything! :}


Looks like the yarns have a pretty tight twist.  Shows how old it it.


The real headache is untying all half hitches I did along the length of each of them (or at least the one that think I can shorten and reuse).




Ken
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Landlocked

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New Piping
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2013, 11:23:48 pm »

Making good progress. Of course with a -24 C windchill outside, there's not as much competition for my time. 


I was able to shorten, rebend, and and reuse enough tubing that I didn't have to dip into my raw stock expect for the still-to-be-built return to the feed tank.


The three silver soldering operations went quickly.  Amazing what the right flux will do for you.


Once I rewrap the lines with twine, engineering work should be done till the Spring.  My goal for the winter is to get the bulwarks/railing built around the maindeck.  A couple of external walls would be nice.  I'll probably throw some pics on a new thread in the Steam portion of the forum and leave this thread for engineering type work.


Stay warm!


Ken/Landlocked
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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #67 on: December 23, 2013, 12:24:18 am »

It's cold but it's going to be a white Christmas.   :-))


I thought I was shifting to a new thread in the other section but I realized that I have several engineering-based decisions to make as I went so I decided to keep this thread going go a while.


Whilst the decking the main deck, to stay relatively true to the prototype, I had to build a cross-walk over the front end of the boiler (where the burner is).  I built the first one last winter and didn't leave enough height to clear the final boiler position (I think I forgot to add the lagging thickness).   For its replacement, I decided that it would be wise to provide some more ventilation to the area.  I'm using aluminum window screening as the perforated decking.  It's soft enough that I could use a broad wood chisel to cut it to size without the distortion shears wanted to add (please don't tell my wood shop instructor -- also please don't tell my English teacher I mixed up except and expect in the last post).


We'll see how it works.


Ken/Landlocked





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SailorGreg

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #68 on: December 23, 2013, 01:04:16 am »

Coming along nicely Ken.  Did you fix the hole in the hull yet?  Of course, if you keep using your chisels to cut metal, they probably won't damage the wood so much next time  ;)

Merry Christmas - stay warm!  (Although I am UK based I am spending Christmas with relations in southern California - 80 degrees forecast for Christmas Day!  :-)) )

Greg

Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2013, 10:39:27 pm »

Greg.


Hole in hull is patched and sanded.  Single digits Fahrenheit today. Wind chill in the minus teens.  The melt last week wasn't enough to clear the ice off.  Instead of smooth ice with a couple of fluffy inches of snow, we have pebbly ice with a couple of inches of crusty snow plus 2 inches of new fluffy stuff.  Looks like no ice boating this year unless we get a good January thaw.   >:-o


Must be a 9 hr flight from England to LAX -- too long but not as bad as LAX to Sydney which about 14 hours.  If I get to go again, I'm thinking a stop over in Fiji! :}


Don't forget you sunscreen.


Ken
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steam up

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2014, 12:20:36 pm »

Enjoyed reading about the build interesting proto type Ken :-))

Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2014, 01:32:35 am »

Weíre getting ready to clean out the garden pond so Iíll have my test basin back.  Time to get back to work on the engineering.
Last autumn, as I tried the foolís errand of trying to find a single setting on the feed bypass valve that would maintain boiler level, I noticed that a small change in the handwheel position would change things from too far open to too far closed.  So, I thought I could use my water level control system to control a solenoid that, through linkage, would cycle the valve across the sweet spot.
I tried mounting a ball joint on the periphery of handwheel but the limited lever length seemed too short.  So, after a short stop to order BA thread taps, I made a lever arm.  I ordered two 5V solenoids from a robot supply shop, a small and a medium.  The attached pictures shows my trial mock up. 
First impression is the basic concept is sound but my repurposed servo arms, cut down from four to two, are too short to multiple the very short throw of the solenoid to sufficient distance to move the valveís lever.  It also appears the return spring on the solenoid is too weak to push the valve lever back open.
The ďmediumĒ size solenoid is too big to fit inside a single bench seat/lockers.  Iím thinking neither the raised seat height nor the push/pull shaft will be particularly noticeable through the windows.
First plan is to try to find/make a different set of linkage arms and beef up the solenoid return spring.  Plan two is the bigger size system.
Any thoughts out there?
Landlocked/Ken
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derekwarner

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2014, 02:39:17 am »

Morning Ken.......without knowing the brand or type of your bypass feed valve......you could consider

1. Use a standard servo modified for 360 degree or continuous rotation
2. Rotate the bypass feed valve body to the same axis to that as of the servo [same torque value in both directions]
3. I suppose the only issue will be understanding if the unseating torque will be sufficient to overcome the induced seating torque previously

In engineering practice, the unseating torque of a high tensile fastener can be 1.5 times the seating torque that was applied

My reason for interest is that I have recently installed a paddle shaft axis boiler feed make up piston pump & an auxiliary electric drive with the identical pump....so am in the same boat in trying to understand if it is possible to achieve an answer without some sort of optical level device in the boiler itself..............Derek

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Derek Warner

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ooyah/2

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2014, 11:42:08 pm »

Weíre getting ready to clean out the garden pond so Iíll have my test basin back.  Time to get back to work on the engineering.
Last autumn, as I tried the foolís errand of trying to find a single setting on the feed bypass valve that would maintain boiler level, I noticed that a small change in the handwheel position would change things from too far open to too far closed.  So, I thought I could use my water level control system to control a solenoid that, through linkage, would cycle the valve across the sweet spot.
I tried mounting a ball joint on the periphery of handwheel but the limited lever length seemed too short.  So, after a short stop to order BA thread taps, I made a lever arm.  I ordered two 5V solenoids from a robot supply shop, a small and a medium.  The attached pictures shows my trial mock up. 
First impression is the basic concept is sound but my repurposed servo arms, cut down from four to two, are too short to multiple the very short throw of the solenoid to sufficient distance to move the valveís lever.  It also appears the return spring on the solenoid is too weak to push the valve lever back open.
The ďmediumĒ size solenoid is too big to fit inside a single bench seat/lockers.  Iím thinking neither the raised seat height nor the push/pull shaft will be particularly noticeable through the windows.
First plan is to try to find/make a different set of linkage arms and beef up the solenoid return spring.  Plan two is the bigger size system.
Any thoughts out there?
Landlocked/Ken

Ken,
I am assuming that you are trying to balance the pump to your boiler on the bench and not in the water driving the boat.

It's very difficult under these circumstances to get the by pass just correct as the steam is rushing thro' the engine without doing any meaningful  work.
There has been several pumps made the same as yours for the TVR engine and all seam to be working with no problems in the water under load using a bypass valve to keep a Maccsteam boiler like yours filled, so can I suggest that you wait until you get your pond cleared before trying to set your bypass valve with the boat in the water.

I have been watching your build and must say that I admire your workmanship, I look forward to see it progressing .
George.
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Landlocked

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Re: Sabino Engineering Build log
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2014, 03:42:39 am »

George,


The quick answer is yes, I'll try to find the just a little too far open/a little too far shut point under load in the pond.  The lever is threaded so I'll lock it in place with the original handwheel nut.  Right now, I'm just trying to get the linkage working right.  I think I can get about 70 degrees of turn which, at least when dealing with the system unloaded on the bench is more than enough to straddle the sweet spot.  Regardless, I'm going to try to keep it from ever seating the globe valve to minimize the unseating torque.  I've noticed the phenomenon Derek mentioned (although the 1.5 factor was news but seems about right).


I'm using a BF Industries water level control system that gives me a on/off switch for a pump or solenoid.  I would love it if ACTion could turn that signal into a rotational signal to drive a servo a set rotation, then I would use a chain linkage from a servo to spin the valve shaft and wouldn't have to fine tune the sweet spot (HINT, HINT!).


Right now I'm trying to find time in my schedule to visit my local hobby shop and see if I can adapt something from the aircraft side of the hobby.  My part bin has let me down.


Stay tuned.


Landlocked/Ken



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