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[heritorasphodel]

This is my first foray into warship modelling, and I think I'm going to jump straight in over my head. The ship(s) I would like to build are from the early/middle 1800s, essentially sailing ships-of-the-line converted to steam/screw propulsion.


I have lines for a few ships of the period, a quartet of frigates, (Warrior 1860, (the ship in Portsmouth), Mersey 1858, Immortalité and Melpomene 1859) a three-decker (Victoria 1859), a two-decker (Duncan 1858) and the French ironclad La Gloire 1860. Unfortunately while I have a lot of documentation on Warrior, I have very little on the other ships. The National Maritime Museum has a model of Immortalite and there's a fairly large model of La Gloire in a French museum. If anyone has any photos of any of these ships, the Trincomalee in Hartlepool or the Unicorn in Dundee I would be very grateful.


The initial problem is one of scale. The plans I've got for Warrior are drawn at 1:96 which gives a model length of between 50 and 60 inches. This seems a like a decent size, but I want to be able to sail other ships of the same period with her at the same scale. The problem is that Warrior was a good 1/3 longer than most of the other ships of the period. For example, Melpomene is the shortest and would only be 29.6 inches long and it seems to me she'd be fairly unstable, what with the large rig. Would it be practical to build all the ships to 1:96, or should I try resizing the Warrior drawings to 1:72 and building them all at that scale, or do I build the others to 1:72 and leave Warrior at 1:96?


Just as a help, here's Immortalité. Would the rig, even without sails, seriously affect her sailing qualities? Or would I need a large weight on the keel to keep her upright?





Andrew

[Bob K]

Wonderful subjects for modelling Andrew.  As you mentioned 'stability' I assume you intend it for radio control, ie using propeller rather than sail.  I really like Immortalité.  A single decker would be far more practical.  Personally I would make the hull a lot deeper than scale below the waterline, and look for making the masts etc very light weight, even though this could make them potentially more fragile. Keep the weight well below the waterline and it should be possible.
 
Challenging, but just think what she would look like on the lake !

[heritorasphodel]

That's what I am thinking about! I like the presence large sailing ships have on the water, but I don't have the skills to use the sails properly so they seemed like a good compromise. I'll probably run them on electric power but I might attempt steam in Warrior. I prefer frigates as well. I don't want to compromise on scale though, and I don't feel qualified to mess around with ship's lines. I'll probably have to fix something over the rudder so they can actually steer, but I'll try and do anything extraneous in clear acrylic so it can't be seen while sailing and can be detached because I'd like to display them as well.


Warrior will probably be first, because I've highly detailed modelling drawings of her, but there are a few technical issues I have to work out first connecting the rudder to the servo. Immortalité or Melpomene would be easier but I've got less to go on.


Andrew

[Bob K]

The wind leverage on sails will be huge, and controlling an RC square rigger is rarely achieved well.
 
Leaving sails aside, think of how modellers of regular ships try to keep superstructure etc minimum weight.  Every gram at double the height will have four times the capsizing moment, usually requiring significant counterweighting as far below the waterline as possible.  Masts are TALL.
 
Having said that I suggest you try to see the excellent display team at Portsmouth who run 'guns firing' battles of square riggers at various events.  Take a close look at their ships out of the water to see how they achieve such incredible realism. 

[tigertiger]

The bigger the model, the smaller the effects of scale.
If you have the space to transport a 1.72 model then consider it. Because the rest of your fleet would be more stable, if you want to stick to one scale.

I am not expert but would consider the that if the rig will not be a working rig, you could consider building it out of lighter materials as it will not have the stresses of carrying sail. Carbon fibre or alloy tube could be an alternative that might prove too flexible to carry sail at this scale, but suit your purpose. Flexibility could also make it more robust if knocked.

[Snowwolflair]

 One point on weight and scale appearance.
 Some people use light wood like Obechi or balsa for the masts etc. to reduce the weight. The strength is not there and the grain of the wood is also wrong. Take a look at sycamore wood as the grain is very fine and it’s a relatively light strong wood.  It is also a white wood so takes any stain you want without looking yellow.
 A lot of people have the same problem with decking, which ends up looking yellow and grainy.  There are some very good marquetry wood books that show the colour and appearance of wood post sealing.
 

[unbuiltnautilus]

We have been brainstorming this while we should be working. We have a Billing HMS Warrior in the shop window with the plans laid out. This model is 1/100 scale, it is a fairly full bodied hull with a deep draught and not too bulky masts and rigging. Should be fine for Warrior, might be some windage issues on smaller vessels at the same scale. If you were building these models at a bigger scale, say 48" long and bigger hulls, I think you could carry the masts unrigged, if you bear in mind weight savings throughout the build. If you want to put sails up you are opening yourself up to a world of problems.
Our fleet of sailing ships all have removable drop keels, about 3" to 6" below the keels, weighing between 6lb and 15lb for the big HMS Victory ( a 30" scaffold pole full of lead! ). Despite this, Victory and Redoutable, both 9' long, suffer knock downs in the wind, and are very often difficult to control in winds above 12 knots.I have been tempted to use Fleetscales big SS Great Britain at about 100" long as a suitable donor hull for a steam frigate, wouldn't need an extra keel, but probably wouldn't fit in a hatchback! We can all dream...

[heritorasphodel]

Having scanned over the Warrior drawings I've found a slight hitch. One of the recommended construction methods, the one I want to use, is plank on frame, but the stern counter is supposed to be blocked out from balsa. However, the rudder head is inside the blocked counter, along with the shaft to raise the propellor. Here's a diagram of the balsa block:





Luckily the whole of the rudder head is above the waterline, but it is in the middle of the balsa block. I don't particularly want to have the rudder shaft extend above the deck, so should I try and hollow out the block or try and find another method of construction? For example, my father has suggested forming the stern from fibreglass.


Andrew

[unbuiltnautilus]

Might be worth making the stern block from two pieces of balsa wood, split port and starboard down the keel line. This should be easier to hollow out to accommodate rudder, tiller etc. Then plank over these blocks once complete.

[heritorasphodel]

The plan recommends up to 8 pieces for the stern counter, which should ease hollowing out, and rather than the complicated 'T' shaped tiller on the top of the rudder post (To avoid it fouling the propellor raising shaft) I'm going to try a belt/chain arrangement.


Andrew

[PICKETBOAT]

Hi all


I've been building working sailing models for years and have struggled with many of the technical and practical issues associated with getting this type of vessel to work. Auxiliary screw vessels of this period are no different to sailing vessels  assuming they set a reasonable area of sail. I'm currently working on HMS Enterprise of 1864 a central battery ironclad, and supposedly the worlds first pocket battleship.
   
The following points may help you.


If you are building using a traditional plank on frame method, don't use a wooden keel. Use a oblong section steel bar and epoxy the hull frames and stem/stern timbers to it before completing the hull using traditional plank on frame construction. This gets a load of weight right down in the hull, gives immense rigidity and gives a substantial keel that can be tapped to accept a (removable) drop keel with bomb weight. The same tapped holes can be used for a display stand mount.


Use a standard sized heavy duty ball raced servo fitted with a sail arm to operate fore and aft sails. Avoid yacht drum winches and yacht sail arm servos as they are unsuitable for scale working models.


Use the same type of servo (with the potentiometer disconnected) built into a horizontal drum winch to work the braces. See the picture attached. The gears increase the power (and slow the movement to scale speed). The drum is connected to the gears via a spring clutch. The spars brace round to their extreme before the clutch slips. No need for micro switched. The winch can be built and installed as a unit, is compact very powerful and mine has run for 6 years maintenance free.


Be VERY aware of top weight in masts and spars. Also use resin or plastic deck fitting as when they are painted only you will know. Avoid metal guns for example.


The removable perspex rudder extension is vital. Make it quite large to start with. If you find the model twitchy and difficult to sail in a straight line reduce it's size in stages till it steers the model well but doesn't "over control it".


The word "auxiliary" in the title says it all. Don't put a monster electric motor in it. Keep it underpowered. Sailing these models under sail is great fun and you will probably use the screw little other than dead calm conditions or to pull you off a lee shore.


I look forward to seeing pictures of the build




PICKETBOAT


www.chyldshallmodelshipyard.com