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Author Topic: True C/V joint.for our boats  (Read 17085 times)

irishcarguy

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True C/V joint.for our boats
« on: March 05, 2013, 11:32:18 PM »

About a week ago I posted quite a bit of information on a C/V joint that I got from the local hobby shop in my search for a descent drive joint for boats. I posted it in engineering & to say the least the response has been a bit of a disappointment. I am raising it here because most if not all check into Chit Chat. The joint in question is made in Taiwan & sold in the US by a company called HPI Racing. I am sure that most of you that race or play with model cars have heard of this company. The spec on the package is Universal Joint 9x162 MM and there are a pair in the package. The cost in Canada is  about $40.00 + tax, True you do have to make a few changes to it to fit a boat but they are pretty easy to do,if I can do it most anybody can make the mods.I have NO commercial interest in this, I am just trying to pass on what I deem valueable information to my fellow members. This is so superior than anything I have yet seen & used that if you try them you will wonder why you ever used what has passed for drive joints in the past, By all means if you have questions just post here or PM me. Mick B.   
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boatmadman

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 11:42:09 PM »

I have been following it, any chance you could post drawings etc for a clearer explanation?

Ta


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oldiron

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 11:47:55 PM »

Mick

  I didn't miss you're write up on your CV joint. I'm building a Joffre at the moment and I'm going to try one out. Anything has to  be better than the traditional Huco that most modellers use. I think there is still a reluctance on the part of many modellers to accept that what they have been using is not quite right. Even the Caldercraft drawings on the Joffre show a single Huco being used. Don't get discouraged. I think it'll take a while for the masses to see the light.

John
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 12:55:03 AM »

I think what upsets me is the way the trade has short changed us & basically sold us junk pretending it was O/K & made no attempt to change. It is obvious to me that they are aware of what has gone on. I will not give up until I see real change. I am going to write to HPI racing hoping to get a better response than I got on the phone. It is obvious that they don't make them theirselves as they come from offshore, the search goes on.Thanks for the encouragement John. I will try to draw it & show how to modify it. Mick B.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 01:18:59 AM »

If you go to a model shop that sells HPI parts, the part# is 87239 just in case the bright spark in the store don't know what you are looking for. Mick B. PS =look up their web site (HPI Racing).
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oldiron

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 03:14:37 AM »

If you go to a model shop that sells HPI parts, the part# is 87239 just in case the bright spark in the store don't know what you are looking for. Mick B. PS =look up their web site (HPI Racing).

Thanks Mick. I'm going to see what our local hobby store can rustle up.

John
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 04:37:40 AM »

Hi John, if you have trouble finding some PM me & I can send you a set, regards, Mick B.l
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RMH

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 07:55:07 AM »

I have been looking for some high quality shaft couplings for use with large brushless motors. I am going to use Emax BL4030 motors which now come with an 8mm shaft so the normal couplings were of no use. I found some "dog and bone" couplings advertised on Propshops website and they made a pair up for me to the sizes I required. They weren't the cheapest of couplings at 25 each but they are large and well made and look to be very strong and far superior to the Huco type coupling. I can't comment on how they perform as I will not be able to try them out for some time.

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vnkiwi

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 08:19:02 AM »

wont take mis-alignment
 :embarrassed:
vnkiwi
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Circlip

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2013, 09:34:53 AM »

wont take mis-alignment
 :embarrassed:
vnkiwi


  Which one?
 The type shown in the last posting is similar to the original ones supplied by RipMax back in the late fifties and in another form seems to suffice for fast powerboats. This one :- http://www.puffinmodels.com/product.php?prod=1706 may be a bit cheaper.
 
 They do take out minor misalignments in more than one plane, but let's face it, we all use a rigid sleeve for initial propshaft/motor alignment don't we?
 
  Regards  Ian
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Circlip

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 09:54:07 AM »

While I fully appreciate what Mick is trying to achieve, a true C/V joint has no endfloat capability so any float is transmitted back to the engine/motor, that's the advantage of the Ball joint coupling.
 
  Regards  Ian
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Bob K

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 10:04:42 AM »

I am sure we all use rigid sleeves to set motor positions relative to prop shafts, but inevitably very small misalignments in any of 3 planes are almost inevitable.  I tend to use double jointed couplers rather than single as these tend to work for all planes.  Disadvantage is they can be noisy at low rpm.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 10:38:20 AM »


Huco sell many different types....
http://www.huco.com/products.asp?cat=64
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oldiron

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 11:48:09 AM »

 As has been covered extensively in another thread, a single universal joint only covers in one plane, as was said above. This is the reason for vibration and noise in the motor/shaft drive train many modelers experience. No matter how you look at it a single joint (dog bone, Huco or whatever) only does half the job. All you have to do is look at the drive shaft(s) under you car. If a single universal would look after all planes of misalignment you can be sure the manufacturers would only use one.
  I doubt everyone uses a solid tube to align their motor/prop shaft. If they did, why buy the single universal joint? You could just leave the solid shaft in place and save money. In fact you'd have a quieter coupling doing so, although it may tend to be a little tight in places.

John
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 12:58:54 PM »


                     O0
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oldiron

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 01:50:50 PM »

I have been looking for some high quality shaft couplings for use with large brushless motors. I am going to use Emax BL4030 motors which now come with an 8mm shaft so the normal couplings were of no use. I found some "dog and bone" couplings advertised on Propshops website and they made a pair up for me to the sizes I required. They weren't the cheapest of couplings at 25 each but they are large and well made and look to be very strong and far superior to the Huco type coupling. I can't comment on how they perform as I will not be able to try them out for some time.

If you used two of those, back to back, with the dog bone set at 90 deg. to each other, you'd have the ideal set up.

John
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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 04:20:45 PM »

Quote
All you have to do is look at the drive shaft(s) under you car. If a single universal would look after all planes of misalignment you can be sure the manufacturers would only use one.
Wonder why Uncle 'enry only put one on my 10 then?
 
 The coupling on a toy boat is precisely that, a coupling, it doesn't have to take up many planes of alignment, the shaft is fixed, the motor is fixed so it joins one to t'other. If the builder is too lazy to line things up, then an increase in wear on the various bits and an increase in current drawn results.
 
  Basic mechanics dictates a ball and socket joint will transmit drive on more than one plane and do it with less stress than a Huco.
 
  Still can't beat lining them up properly.
 
  Regards  Ian
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RMH

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 05:02:49 PM »

The main reason I bought the expensive couplings from Propshop is that I was unable to find anyone else who could supply a coupling for an 8mm motor shaft. It was only after the motors arrived from HK that I found out they had changed the spec from a 6mm shaft to 8mm.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 06:58:33 PM »

Hi guys I have not looked at the whole range of C/V joints made by HPI Racing. There are similar ones made by other companies but in my search these ones I purchased came near to what I was looking for & which I felt with a little bit of work would fit. I feel pretty sure there are others out there that can do the job too it is just that I found one that I knew I could modify to fit most applications that I was using or going to use in my boats, (1/16 Tamar, 1/12 Tamar, Smit Nederland,and the Fairmount Alpine) I have now modified 3 sets of these & had no problems what so ever. Dave (Norseman) has one I sent him to try & photos are on the engineering thread. It would be nice if HPI racing took the time to take my phone call, but I hope my letter will get a better chance to reach the top.This particular joint is very easy to adapt to most setups that we use on our boats, hence the choice I made. There were others of a similar design but would have required more work to adapt. You are correct Martin Huco do make other joints but still in the same design & with the same problems, they were what got me started on the hunt for a better joint in the first place,I feel I have found one. Mick B.
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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 07:49:57 PM »

Irishguy


Am I being confused,  but I don't see a constant velocity joint in the HPI catalog?
I do see universal joints of various types but not a true CV.
All UJ s are useless unless used as opposite pairs.
The comments about using proper alignment are true BUT it is near impossible to maintain in a model let alone a real size boat where immersed and dry hull movement is quite large.


Some years ago we built a simple type for a model based on the chinook helicopter as the model had the same prob as the original, a commoning shaft windup, when using UJ s.


The type we made was like this one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoipuajv8wk


Good thread though.


Boneash
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vnkiwi

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2013, 08:42:26 PM »

Hi Mick,
Love your solution to the CV for boats.
The Huco seem to be designed, not for misalignment, but for changes in direction, of properly aligned shafts. (and that in one plane only).
If they'd made the centre link ends of their double at 90 degrees to each other, would have made a more useful joint for use by us model boaties.
These (Huco) joints where never designed for the use we put them to.
Keep up the good work
cheers
vnkiwi
 
ps Boneash, that's a CV joint designed to carry huge loading, nice piece of design, thanks for the link
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Norseman

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2013, 09:00:10 PM »

Hi Guys

I am very fortunate in having one of Mick's joints but I am not yet ready for the build it pairs up with. What I can say is it is a solid piece of kit that inspires some confidence. I do agree that one has to make good efforts to align everything ... But for any small errors this really seems to be a good answer, and especially so for the more powerful set ups.

Dave
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2013, 06:49:32 AM »

It is in the catalogue under part #87239 & it also shows where stock levels are at & availability in different countries. It is a true C/V joint as it will pivot in any direction through 360 degrees, a U/Joint won't do that. I do know the difference between a U/Joint & a C/V joint as I fitted quite a few in my 50 years as an Automotive Tech, just wishing I had a $1 for each one I fitted.Mick B.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2013, 06:59:17 AM »

Generally a C/V joint which are fitted these days to all front wheel drive cars (some have different names) show no loss of power when driving through different angles, some turn through an angle of over 30 degrees when you steer your car. This of course means that its alignment is not critical and it will tolerate misalignment without any perceptible power loss or noise, really a win win situation for us model boat builders. Mick B. 
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Norseman

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2013, 11:48:58 AM »

really a win win situation
All win win situations are gratefully accepted Mick  :-))
Now if you can sort out my kids I will be impressed  O0

Dave
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