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Author Topic: True C/V joint.for our boats  (Read 17089 times)

Mad_Mike

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2013, 12:06:26 PM »

what you guys are looking for is these:
http://www.litemodz.com/specials.php
they are 44 each of course:
http://www.litemodz.com/index.php?cPath=34
 
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oldiron

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »

what you guys are looking for is these:
http://www.litemodz.com/specials.php
they are 44 each of course:
http://www.litemodz.com/index.php?cPath=34

Beauty.......nice bit of kit

John
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Subculture

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 04:24:01 PM »

SHG and Hunter Systems supply a little double end yellow plastic coupling that behaves in the same way as a CV coupling. Very cheap- under a fiver last time I looked. No good for high power, but fine for most scale subjects.

irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 07:47:55 PM »

I like that joint & would like to get one to see if it is possible to adapt to our boats. My own prototype design is similar but I am using 4 ball bearings. I can't curve the Ball slots as they have done on that shaft but it should work well with 4 or 5 balls if you align it within 10 degrees, any more out of alignment & it will probably vibrate, These things take time & a lot of effort & often don't work after all. However the one Made from the HPI racing shaft does work & can fit most of our models, the limiting factor is the motor shaft diameter @ 6MM. There is not enough metal to make the bore larger. The attaching sleeve can be made to fit any propshaft.  Mick B.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 07:49:43 PM »

Sorry I should have said the joint put up by Mad Mike. Mick B.
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sparkey

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2013, 07:59:51 PM »

 %% here is an idea ,can you ran a 6m/m die over the shaft and then turning a sleave with a hole tapped 6m/m , this can be any diameter
 you require to receive shaft, hope this is clear .Ray. %% %% [size=78%]   [/size]
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2013, 08:09:27 PM »

 
Also, suppose consideration was given to using the unit "as is", that is no cutting down or is the overall length too long?????????????
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Mad_Mike

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 08:34:18 PM »

I like that joint & would like to get one to see if it is possible to adapt to our boats. My own prototype design is similar but I am using 4 ball bearings. I can't curve the Ball slots as they have done on that shaft but it should work well with 4 or 5 balls if you align it within 10 degrees, any more out of alignment & it will probably vibrate, These things take time & a lot of effort & often don't work after all. However the one Made from the HPI racing shaft does work & can fit most of our models, the limiting factor is the motor shaft diameter @ 6MM. There is not enough metal to make the bore larger. The attaching sleeve can be made to fit any propshaft.  Mick B.
I think i have missed the point of the thread are you planning on producing your own cv joints or talking about adapting readily available ones? That supplier of those cv joints make them for both front and rear wheel applications, the front wheels of course having steering need to deviate 30 degrees from the centre line, not including any additional angles provoked by suspension movement. Unless were talking about different cv's of course.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2013, 09:02:37 AM »

Mike I don't know how long you have been following this thread & also another thread by John(oldiron). When I tried out the Huco couplings supplied with my motors for my Smit Nederland I was not happy with the racket they made. At that time a lot of discussion took place & John actually did a series of tests & found the Huco sadly lacking compared to other joints, the Dumas dogbone was the best one he tested.Neil expressed the opinion that the Huco was in fact only rated by Huco for around a thousand revs, certainly not up to the revs used by many in their boats. At the time I had an idea that I could make a real C/V joint using an inner ball housing holding 4 3/16 ball bearings in 4 cups 3/32 inch deep drilled in that housing. I would then make an outer housing 3/4 inch diameter & put 4 3/16inch grooves 90 degrees apart for the ball bearings to run in.All this was done free hand. The centre for the outer is bored 3/8 inch for the inner hub carrying the 4 ball bearings to fit & is 5/8 inch deep It worked but was not accurate enough & had vibration. I decided there & then that I needed a mill to get the accuracy I wanted, guess what I bought myself a mill.  During the time I tried making my prototypes (3 in fact) & getting my mill I saw in my local model shop Axle shafts made by HPI Racing that I thought I could modify  & be able to use on my boats, These are true C/V joints & there were different ones but I finally settled on one type that had enough meat(metal) on it that allowed me to make the mods to fit my boats.I made it & tested it & it worked like a dream. I sent one to Dave (Norseman) to put some photos on the Forum (I can't yet,dumb) & also to use on his upcoming model & I also wanted his opinion on the joint. This is where I am at now. The joint works & is fairly easy to modify to fit most shafts, up to 6MM motor shafts & the connecting sleeve can be large enough in diameter to be threaded 4MM to attach to the shortened axle shaft & the necessary thread or hole to fit a propshaft of just about any size. The sleeve is made of brass in mine & is threaded for a 5mm propshaft. I happen to think it is well within the skills of 80% of the members on the forum. When fitted I doubt you will ever have to replace it, (my opinion).I hope this answers your questions Mike if not send me your phone # & I will call you, Regards, Mick B. = PS I have not given up on the idea of making my own but a stroke has slowed me down a bit for now as the fingers on my left hand don't do what I would like them to do & I am a strong Lefty. Mick B.
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Mad_Mike

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2013, 10:54:35 AM »

It seems evident then a ball type cv wouldnt be necessary as its intended for extreme angles. The inner cv of a car half shaft has bearings as its only required to move around 10 degrees. I have no doubts they could move more though. They sound similar to what you have allready made. Ive allways wanted to try metal ujs, i currently use tubes and they seem to tick all the right boxes for most of my builds:
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2013, 05:04:31 PM »

The joint you have displayed Mike is not a true C/V joint. I am not sure what car it came from. Nissan made one like that & called it a tripod joint which was failure . They did it to get around paying royalities on the original design which was a British design, & which most C/V joints are still copied from. Mick B.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2013, 05:14:10 PM »

I am no fan Mike of a bit of plastic fuel tubing as part of a drive shaft or polyurethane for that matter. I have solved the problem in my own case. I will just for the fun of it try to perfect the one of my own design just to prove a point to myself & if I fail so what. Mick B.
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Norseman

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2013, 10:12:31 PM »

Well Mick, if you don't mind I'll just keep faith with your recent engineering efforts.
I can hold your modified joint in one hand and the all the other 'crud' I have in the other. No contest !!!

Dave
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Mad_Mike

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2013, 08:04:58 AM »

I think its off something like a toyota, i found the picture on the internet. I didnt know they were a failure i thought all cars had these on the inner half shafts. Learn something every day  :-))
My boats are not very big so a bit of plastic tube in most cases is quite adequate for what i want to do. I totally understand the neccessaties of a more substancial coupling on a larger model. I think your coupling is a good idea, but im curious to see what you have developed from scratch and i wish you all the best with it for the future.
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2013, 06:37:03 PM »

Hi Mike thanks for the support & you too Dave. As I said before if you would like to have a chat Mike send me your phone # and a good time to call (you are 7 hours ahead of us in Canada) I have been watching with interest your work on the steam & gas (petrol) engines. Don't give up it is nice to see someone thinking outside the box, Mick B.
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vnkiwi

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2013, 12:32:38 AM »

Hi Mick,
Have been following your posts with interest.
Your approach is to be commended, and has resulted in myself having a new look at couplings.
Part of my job is to design mechanical 'things', and have never seriously sat down and looked at couplings in my model boats.
Your coupling allows for miss-alignment in all planes, and with the addition of a sleeve/spline on one of the shafts could also allow forward and aft adjustment.
Will be looking into your ideas, if you don't mind, with a view to replacing joints in all my boats, ranging from 12" to 48".
I generally "steal" from everywhere in building my boats, so to borrow from model car development, if it improves things, is acceptable.
If the old "dog-bone" style coupling had the pins each end at 90degrees end for end, it would have been a step in the right direction, even the 'Huco" double couplings have been designed for only one plane change in direction, not mis-alignment .
Keep up the good work, and keep posting please.
The world needs creative thinkers like yourself
cheers
vnkiwi
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2013, 01:36:46 AM »

Hi Vinkiwi, I did not do this bit of testing just for me feel free to copy or "steal" anything you feel will help you build a better boat or anything else. When I joined the forum I got massive amounts of help from total strangers on the forum.....90% of what I have picked up came from our members. I am happy to share & today spent more money on a different indexing head for my mill that is very accurate & hope this will help with my own prototype, only time will tell. Thanks for the support, it does help a lot.Mick B.
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Circlip

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2013, 09:48:22 AM »

Quote
Your coupling allows for miss-alignment in all planes, and with the addition of a sleeve/spline on one of the shafts could also allow forward and aft adjustment.

  No it doesn't vnkiwi.  angular yes, within limits, but not all planes.
 
  Regards  Ian.
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vnkiwi

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2013, 10:14:16 AM »

Ian,
your quite correct,  :-)) But then any one joint can only take angular deflection, 2 together, Which is what I was thinking, and envisage, with a suitably placed spline/sleeve, can take misalignment in any plane, up to considerable out of alignment, and still transmit smooth rotary power.
Something simple UJ's cannot, even when rotated 90 degrees apart, when in pairs as in full size rear drive vehicle drive trains.
The simple joints we use in model boats are there to transmit power through an angle in one plane only, which is why they are noisy.
And the larger any misalignment, the noisier they get.  O0
Happy with that   %) , rant over, I'm going to bed :}
cheers
vnkiwi
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Mad_Mike

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2013, 10:41:46 AM »

Hi Mike thanks for the support & you too Dave. As I said before if you would like to have a chat Mike send me your phone # and a good time to call (you are 7 hours ahead of us in Canada) I have been watching with interest your work on the steam & gas (petrol) engines. Don't give up it is nice to see someone thinking outside the box, Mick B.
Dont worry Ive not given up on steam. My engines worked but they were barely usable as functional powerplants. They were inefficient and wasted a lot of steam. Ive got a new larger boiler on the way and im going to experiment with burners to produce more steam. The plant that i had went into building a small river launch. The gas engine was a long shot and not a serious project, it was more to see if i could do it. The compression was bad at the beggining and was the ultimate problem in the end.

  No it doesn't vnkiwi.  angular yes, within limits, but not all planes.
 
  Regards  Ian.
thanks for clearing that up i got all confused for a moment when he said it allows for missalignment on planes
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Circlip

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2013, 12:56:46 PM »

Firstly, the work that MickB has done is to be applauded and there is no criticism to this, however, due to the cost, we seem to be applying a 40 sledgehammer to crack a 4 nut or even more if you want to add another C/V joint into the equation as in full size drive trains. Don't forget though that in full size systems, invariably one, the other or both shafts they are coupling are subject to in use miss alignment  ie. steering/suspension or vibration isolation mounts.
  Let's now get back to our toys. The prop tube is rigidly mounted. The power unit is usually rigidly mounted. we can't solidly lock the propshaft in the tube so a bit of end float is allowed. Even the prehistoric bent shaft end couplings of Eze-built (and before) eras allowed more miss alignment and end float tolerance than a Huco or true C/V joint will without extras. It still does the job far more efficiently but it doesn't look as pretty as a bit of red or black plastic at the pondside.
At the end of the day, it's down to personal preference or depth of wallet but in simple ingineering terms there is nothing to beat correct alignment, a bit of endfloat and a sliding coupling that allows minor deviations. Splined drives in our sizes aren't practical (forget those on the end of the Hucos, they're there to allow a basic plastic molding to "Fit" all sizes of shaft, not used as a sliding spline  ) so I know who's going to get part of my pension  :-))
 
  Regards  Ian.
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Norseman

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2013, 02:58:05 PM »

I hear what you say but you could just think of it along the lines of the lads who like to put a lot of effort into building every single part of their own steam engines. Totally mad, but gloriously so :-)). Plus Mick's particular stock part wasn't anything like 40.

I have a few boats with Hucos that will stay that way, a couple of builds that I have the equipment for already, and one of Mick's for a Tosher I was collecting parts for when Mick sent the coupling across. I don't have any other expensive tastes at all, so the price difference is not very significant to me, especially when taken in with the cost of a full build. So my Boston Typhoon and Kalakala will get Mick's type when I do them.

Hmmn ... The second hand Vliestroom I have been working on has motors that must have been aligned after emptying a bottle of scotch ... More work  O0

Dave



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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2013, 04:20:53 PM »

I feel Circlip you have not grasped the full implication of what a TRUE C/J brings to our model drive lines.  First both propshaft & motor are fixed so only one joint is required to give true 360 degree free rotation The $40.00 cost gives you two axle kits in the package,therefore you get two joints. If they had a sliding spline they would then work in all planes without the use of a second joint .Cars use two because of the added complication of steering & suspension, we have no such problem with our boat drivelines. I would note here you can by means of the connecting sleeve adjust the distance between the motor & shaft very precisely if care is taken when installed. With the price of most "good" models costing from $600.00 to$800.00 I do not consider it expensive to pay $20.00 for a part as fundmentally necessary as a PROPER Joint,but then as we have seen on many builds on occasion is paint finish is given much more priority than the mechanical's of the boat or ship what ever it may be. Bottom line to all this is that what I see on the market now do not do the job we need & in general  the trade has been happy to sell us what I consider sub standard "joints" & show little inclination to improve. Where would we be with Radios,Motors & the many other improvements we have seen over the last 30 years if that had been the same case...Just a thought for the day. Mick B... PS= In my case I have a joint that does what no other joint on the market today will do but I will also never stop trying to find a better answer when I feel I should...
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Circlip

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2013, 05:17:34 PM »

Perhaps a hydraulic drive coupling would have similar implications Mick? Completely mechanically isolating the input and output shafts. That would be better still, but at what cost? With reference to adding a splined sleeve to a single C/V and having all plane freedom? not on this side of the Atlantic. All plane working was  a reply to another post, basic mechanics, and whichever way you look at the problem, a single joint, which I have constantly advocated, is satisfied better by a ball and pin drive I originally linked to. The first eighteen words to my previous reply should have explained my views on your efforts but seem to have been ignored.
 The reply from another post shows that the toy car brigade have a manufacturer who has already done this for cars so I'm surprised no one has asked them for a boat variant as they have the "Hard work" tooling.
 If the careful setting up was followed, as I stated then considerable savings all round are to be had.
  There is always room for a better mousetrap but is the end result worth the multiple of the original cost, to achieve what?
  Regards  Ian
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irishcarguy

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Re: True C/V joint.for our boats
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2013, 06:00:46 PM »

Hi Ian, There was/is another thread by oldiron(John) that shows some tests that John done that the huco was actually the worst. I have been looking at the complete kit & the other end of the main shaft is actually a dog bone where it attaches to the diff I think. If that is the case & I am still checking into it, the single kit with the addition of the inner shaft connector which does not come in the kit will give you 2 C/V joints & 2 dogbone type joints,with a little this gives you 4 joints for about $50.00. Granted the dogbones are not anywhere as good as the C/V joint end but in my mind still far superior than a Huco or a piece of plastic tube.I will try to find the inner dogbone part that will fit which I think costs about $10.00. I priced out the parts for one Huco joint from one of your better U/K suppliers & the cost for one complete joint(double)with motor & propshaft connectors is about $18.00, not a lot of difference in the end. If you would like PM me & give me your phone # & I will call & chat on my nickle(cheap from here). Also if you want to hold one in your hand I would be happy to let you try one ,all I need is the motor shaft diameter & the thread size for your propshaft , free...Mick B.   PS = Ian I did phone the Company HPI Racing but they refused to connect me to anyone,brushed me off with "send
us a letter and drawings"
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