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Author Topic: Another H & S Issue.  (Read 4716 times)

Bryan Young

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Another H & S Issue.
« on: May 01, 2013, 02:38:40 PM »

Health end Safety Rules get stupider by the day.
For years now my wifes allotment association has held an annual “Scarecrow” competition combined with a “Families” picnic afternoon.
Or they have done until this year when the H&S lot stuck their oar in.
They now want a written 6 monthly risk assessment on each of the 100 plus allotment plots.
This will probably include the chances of spiking a foot with a fork or cutting off a toe with a spade. The fire risks of burning rubbish (in an incinerator) plus anything else they can dream up.But my point in writing this is to wonder how long it’ll be before the hobby of sailing/driving model boats/ships falls into their draconian clutches. Their opportunities for meddling and possible “banning” of such an activity are quite alarming. But draw your own conclusions! BY.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 02:51:57 PM »

Wait until you shuffle off this mortal coil Bryan, cemetery regulations are horrific. A headstone is considered to be a potentially lethal weapon and all bits of metal have to be removed before they will even consider putting a match to the cremator.
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ardarossan

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 02:58:54 PM »

Would I be right in assuming that the request to provide assessments is from a local grouop or 'authority', hiding behind the term 'Health and Safety', and not actually from 'H & S themselves?

Either way, bury them in their own bureaucracy and ask who is supposed to provide the written risk assessment? Unless the reports are written to a specific standard, and by a qualified and/or approved body, the actual risk assessment reports themselves would be a H & S issue.

Andy

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sparkey

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 03:14:55 PM »

 >>:-( Before I retired I used to be a maintenance manager,a good part of my time was spent filling out risk assessments forms for the
health and safety  officer who's main job was to make everybody's life a misery. We had risk assessments for everything from using a
computer to driving a cherrypicker and everything in between,now I am retired I use good old fashioned common sense as I was taught
when I was a young apprentice,good old days,Ray >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( [size=78%]             [/size]
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Bryan Young

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 03:24:08 PM »

Wait until you shuffle off this mortal coil Bryan, cemetery regulations are horrific. A headstone is considered to be a potentially lethal weapon and all bits of metal have to be removed before they will even consider putting a match to the cremator.
Thanks for the concern Colin. I'll let you know all about it after the event. Bryan.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »

Would I be right in assuming that the request to provide assessments is from a local grouop or 'authority', hiding behind the term 'Health and Safety', and not actually from 'H & S themselves?

Either way, bury them in their own bureaucracy and ask who is supposed to provide the written risk assessment? Unless the reports are written to a specific standard, and by a qualified and/or approved body, the actual risk assessment reports themselves would be a H & S issue.

Andy
Local authority (in this case the Metropolitan Council of North Tyneside).
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Bob K

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 03:30:30 PM »

A bit of devils advocate here …

Allotments are generally owned by the local authority and rented to individuals.  Bye laws etc re the rental agreement cover what individuals can do.  I am sure the allotment association also has rules.
The problem arises when the ‘public’ are invited to an ‘event’ there.

Risk assessments are merely a simple means of covering backs in case of litigation, to show you have considered additional risks for the event, and taken reasonable steps to either eliminate or reduce them.  ie  a huge BBQ for 200 people.   If people are paying admission they have a right to expect reasonable safety.

Before anyone gets fired up, R.A.’s only take minutes to write.  Three columns. Single page.  Identify a genuine hazard (calor gas fire, trip hazard), who is likely to be affected, and what you have done to eliminate or reduce the risk.  Sign and CC it to the local authority. 

By all means flame me, but if the rubber gas pipe on the BBQ catches fire and there is an explosion which injures people at a 'paying event'  . . .

It is just old fashioned common sense, the only difference is that you have written down what should be ‘obvious’ beforehand. 
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ardarossan

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 03:51:13 PM »

Local authority (in this case the Metropolitan Council of North Tyneside).

Often unfairly, the Health & Safety Exec (www.hse.gov.uk) get accused of interfering when it isn't actually them. Unfortunately their title is the same as that of the issues of concern, i.e. 'Health and Safety'
In the case of your allotments, it's just the local-authority conducting a pre-emptive ACE (Ass-Covering Exercise), and that process is explained nicely in Bob K's reply.

So, more importantly, what are the rules for the Scarecrow competition?

Andy


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Netleyned

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 04:09:50 PM »

Any scarecrow approaching the exploding gas bottles
of the barbecue will be deemed a fire hazard and
promptly put out by the duty fire watcher

Ned
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GAZOU

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 04:16:27 PM »


    >:-o
There are many people who die in their beds.

Do you have insurance for this? How much does it cost?

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sparkey

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 04:17:45 PM »

 {-) On the subject of scarecows have you seen the state of us boaters(me included),we tend to dress in some old gear that we feel comfortable in, I like to wear old clothes just in case the worst happens and I fall in, which has occurred in the past,the waders I was wearing
slipped on the concrete and in I went,so can't we have a scarecrow competition for us lot,Ray {-) {-) {-) [size=78%]  [/size]
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Bob K

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 04:23:48 PM »

>:-o
There are many people who die in their beds.

So true Gazou   :-))

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GAZOU

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 05:18:47 PM »

If I had the choice I would like to leave this life “in the act of flesh”.
    :-)) if that happened to me it would be a miracle and St. Pierre would not believe
I think it tells stories and send me to hell   >>:-(
 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 06:18:00 PM »

Don't go like Elvis did!
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Netleyned

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 06:21:33 PM »

Thought he was working in a chippie %%

Ned
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grendel

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 06:34:21 PM »

the trouble is, even the act of identifying some risks is in itself an admission, if for instance you identify a dozen different risks and despite this and notices etc someone injures themselves in a way you had not identified - by having identified a dozen other risks the question will then be why you failed to identify the one the person injured themselves by.
much easier to put up a notice that there might be hazards on the site and people should take appropriate care, and keep children under supervision at all times, this way you identify no specific risks, but make people aware that they need to take care and look after themselves (and their kids),then if someone has an accident you can point to the sign and say, they were warned to take care. H&S is a whole minefield of damned if you do damned if you dont, why do you think the H&S reps want someone else to write the risk assessment.
Grendel
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CF-FZG

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 06:48:55 PM »

much easier to put up a notice that there might be hazards on the site and people should take appropriate care, and keep children under supervision at all times, this way you identify no specific risks, but make people aware that they need to take care and look after themselves (and their kids),then if someone has an accident you can point to the sign and say, they were warned to take care.

Putting a sign up can only be used as a warning, you cannot delegate risk or responsibility, they remain in the responsibilities of the organisors
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Bob K

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 08:29:30 PM »

With Wicksteed coming up I thought you may be interested in reading the latest Risk Assesment of Wicksteed Park MBC.  All good simple common sense stuff, but having taken the time to consider the possible situations and working with the park authority helps everyone.
 
http://www.wicksteedparkmbc.com/risk-assessments.html
 
 
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kinmel

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 08:42:22 PM »

You do not have to accept these crazy H&S demands.

Threaten the Council with a complaint to the H.S.E. "MythBuster" panel; whose job it is to put these "Jobsworths" back in their boxes

see :-   http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/myth-busting.htm
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Guy Bagley

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 08:44:01 PM »

being someone who has filled out way too many risk assessments and method statements plus being both IOSHH AND NEBOSH trained i think wicky's RA's are pretty woolly... the risk level  is stated but the likelihood isn't..... neither is the next date of review and also who put this document together..........but i agree generally 'elf and safety' has gone mad recently.....


the most dangerous part of the day at mayhem at wicky would be travelling by road to the event, and if we honestly looked at the risks  like the 'elf and safety brigade' would want us to - then  half the attendees would never set foot away from home !!!
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GAZOU

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 09:22:38 PM »

Hello

for Gazouland is how it goes:

I'm not host, I go on vacation for a week and my friends can join me in Marcon. This year 170 friends come on holiday with me. Everyone does what he wants, he goes sailing or walking, it's the holidays. This is also why there are no sellers
I have insurance in case an accident should happen, but everyone already has a compulsory insurance with his house. This insurance is for the sport. The model is a sport .......................... French is not yet as the U.S., there is not a trial for small unimportant thing.

IF anyone was looking for me in trouble he would have all the members of my forum against him.
I thought that if someone was looking for trouble MARTIN all members of Mayhem would be against the enemy.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 10:37:48 PM »

>>:-( Before I retired I used to be a maintenance manager,a good part of my time was spent filling out risk assessments forms for the
health and safety  officer who's main job was to make everybody's life a misery. We had risk assessments for everything from using a
computer to driving a cherrypicker and everything in between,now I am retired I use good old fashioned common sense as I was taught
when I was a young apprentice,good old days,Ray >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

Without reading further there is the problem. Why, simple, common sense is now dead. <:( <:( <:(
It's all about making you protect/save me and from my own stupidity >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
It is also getting that way here in Australia.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 10:57:40 PM »

the trouble is, even the act of identifying some risks is in itself an admission, if for instance you identify a dozen different risks and despite this and notices etc someone injures themselves in a way you had not identified - by having identified a dozen other risks the question will then be why you failed to identify the one the person injured themselves by.
much easier to put up a notice that there might be hazards on the site and people should take appropriate care, and keep children under supervision at all times, this way you identify no specific risks, but make people aware that they need to take care and look after themselves (and their kids),then if someone has an accident you can point to the sign and say, they were warned to take care. H&S is a whole minefield of damned if you do damned if you dont, why do you think the H&S reps want someone else to write the risk assessment.
Grendel

Your sign is fact an admission that there is a problem which you failed to identify, otherwise there is no need for the sign.
 
The disclaimers which were universally used for anything and everything, such as failure to read the instructions, or some such, etc will not make us liable etc  have all been challenged and can no longer be relied upon as a defence.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 11:10:33 PM »

With Wicksteed coming up I thought you may be interested in reading the latest Risk Assesment of Wicksteed Park MBC.  All good simple common sense stuff, but having taken the time to consider the possible situations and working with the park authority helps everyone.
 
http://www.wicksteedparkmbc.com/risk-assessments.html

Don't go far enough, vague and you can drive a truck through them.
 
Cross your fingers.
 
Don't know about the UK, which I suspect would be similar, but here in OZ the underlying principle of OH&S is your Duty of Care.
 
Simple example, you are the Safety Bod and people need to wear a safety helmet.
 
Bod A hasn't got one, so you give bod A a safety helmet but he doesn't wear, it so you instruct him to wear it at all times you have done your bit.
No, No, No, because, if he is not using the safety equipment, you, under duty of care, have to remove him from the danger, namely remove him from the site.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Another H & S Issue.
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 11:12:58 PM »

being someone who has filled out way too many risk assessments and method statements plus being both IOSHH AND NEBOSH trained i think wicky's RA's are pretty woolly... the risk level  is stated but the likelihood isn't..... neither is the next date of review and also who put this document together..........but i agree generally 'elf and safety' has gone mad recently.....


the most dangerous part of the day at mayhem at wicky would be travelling by road to the event, and if we honestly looked at the risks  like the 'elf and safety brigade' would want us to - then  half the attendees would never set foot away from home !!!

 O0 O0 O0   :-)) :-)) :-))
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