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Author Topic: Oversized warships?  (Read 13752 times)

Shipmate60

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2014, 10:06:33 pm »

The Harrier COULD take off vertically.
It was originally designed as a land-based fighter-bomber which could be serviced/refueled and rearmed in a forest clearing and take off vertically.
The reason for the ski ramp was for fuel efficiency on a fully loaded aircraft which would need additional range from a carrier than from a local forest clearing.
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dodes

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2014, 08:35:58 pm »

My main concern with this entire project is can the country actually afford to run them fully operationally. The old carriers ( not the CVH's ) were finally stopped because we could not afford them, because of the specialised support train, the regular loss of aircraft and pilots on each commission, maintenance of the specialised aircraft required for them and that does not include the battle group required to protect them. Also is the day of large carriers coming to an end as the Chinese have had for a few years a shore based long range anti ship missile and 9 tons and travelling fast vertically there is virtually no protection from it, it is estimated that it would blow the bottom plates off an American super carrier or at least so disable it, it is none combatable. As to air borne radar, the new radar on the 45's bend to the earths curve and is phenomenal. 
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Bowwave

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2014, 09:36:34 pm »

I think the days of the carrier are far from over .As an instrument of power projection in an unstable world it remains   one of the best options. At least   you   reduce your reliance on so called friendly states for overfly rights  or   politically sensitive  over seas bases.    The days of fighting a Midway  type of battle have long gone  and the   modern super carrier may be a big target but it's no push over . The new generation of Anti ballistic missiles available to the USN are more than capable of  dealing with any  present  threat  to a carrier battle group  at least for the time being.  Who knows what the future may bring  especially  in  particle   beam   and rail gun technology  .
Bowwave 
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derekwarner

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2014, 10:22:29 pm »

 :o & Bowwave says....... "Who knows what the future may bring  especially  in  particle   beam   and rail gun technology"

I thought they were already here O0..... Derek
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Derek Warner

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Pondweed

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2014, 12:23:33 am »

My main concern with this entire project is can the country actually afford to run them fully operationally. The old carriers ( not the CVH's ) were finally stopped because we could not afford them, because of the specialised support train, the regular loss of aircraft and pilots on each commission, maintenance of the specialised aircraft required for them and that does not include the battle group required to protect them. Also is the day of large carriers coming to an end as the Chinese have had for a few years a shore based long range anti ship missile and 9 tons and travelling fast vertically there is virtually no protection from it, it is estimated that it would blow the bottom plates off an American super carrier or at least so disable it, it is none combatable. As to air borne radar, the new radar on the 45's bend to the earths curve and is phenomenal.

The Chinese are also building a carrier navy. I've just seen film of their copy of a Russian 4+ generation fighter taking off over a carriers ramp.

It is a guide to the future.
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BarryM

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2014, 12:35:48 pm »

Given that the RN has recently had to mobilise a ship from Portsmouth to investigate Russian warships off the Moray Firth and, until it arrived, had to rely on phoning local fishing vessels for info on the Russian movements, how long would it take to mobilise an escort group and a supply group for just a single RN carrier and allow it to proceed on operations?

Barry M
PS. I suppose they could have sent a Nimrod or its replacement to check on the Russians but - oh dear, I forgot - the MOD got rid of them too.



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dodes

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2014, 02:48:34 pm »

Hi Barry, yes you have a good point, back in the late 1970's I was based at Great Harbour on the Clyde and the RMAS Rollicker spent a lot of time on AGI duties. This was going out and relieving RFA's etc. which were shadowing Russian spy trawlers, I remember spending 14 days in the Irish Sea when the wind moderated to a NE force 8 for a few days otherwise it was force 10 to 12, the RFA would not sail from Faslane as it said it was too dangerous to sail, but Com Clyde ordered her to sea, we was only supposed to be there for 5 days. As you say Nimrods regularly overflew the areas patrolling for East Block vessels and the RN kept one or two frigates on 24 hours notice to sail and shadow foreign warships in areas of interest to us. My brother nearly missed Christmas because they thought a large Russian warship was going to sail close to the Faeroes, but she diverted at the last moment and my brother returned to Devonport very late Christmas eve. But then the RN although quite small still had a small fleet, today it should be termed more of a flotilla.
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raflaunches

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2014, 02:53:47 pm »


PS. I suppose they could have sent a Nimrod or its replacement to check on the Russians but - oh dear, I forgot - the MOD got rid of them too.



What really annoyed me watching PMQ's a few weeks back that some of the MPs want to discuss a replacement for the Nimrod Maritime Patrol aircraft as part of the 2015 SDR (Strategic Defence Review)!!!


I have spoken to the BAe personnel building the MR4s and they were disgusted with the government for cancelling the requirement of the MR4. Considering that they were ready to enter service within weeks of that announcement is beyond sanity. Somebody had a hidden agenda.  >>:-( >:-o
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Bowwave

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2014, 04:18:01 pm »

Sadly nothing changes .   As I mentioned in a previous post we could have  saved tax payers   funds  by not spending  vast sums on  the F35  project when our own P1154 was on the cusp of   fruition back in the mid 1960s .   All we are doing is playing catch up .  At least the P1154 would have given us  that real leap forward in  supersonic  VTOL.   Now    add the TSR2  and the MRA-4 to that long and inglorious list , not forgetting the CV-01 and here we are back were we started.   It's a great pity,  we get the right projects  and the wrong level of funding and cost overruns just sore away into the blue yonder  giving the bean counters  no option  but to pull the plug. 
Bowwave 
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Netleyned

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2014, 04:38:15 pm »

Dodes, you brother was lucky.
We deployed from Pompey 20 Dec 1980 to suss out
a Red Carrier .
We spent Christmas day in a force 9 trying to find a Lee
around Iceland to ras from a small German Tanker.
Never did see said Carrier but we were back for New Year :-))

Ned
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ballastanksian

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2014, 07:13:10 pm »

Re the Seaking/ Merlin I just wondered if they would comission or purchase a fixed wing long range early warning aircraft and perhaps a small in flight refueller to allow the F35s to take off light and fuel up once in flight, and perhaps a small cargo carrier to allow reinforcements and supplies to be flown in whilst away and too far away for helicopters to reach the carrier.  Like wot the Americans have had aboard their carriers for decades.

I think we need at least two carriers for otherwise, when a singe carrier is in for refit etc, the aircrews may become rusty, or the MOD will have to rent time on other carriers to keep the pilots tip top, like the French do I believe.
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warspite

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2014, 08:03:02 am »

I would like to know when the public is going to wake up to the incompetence of those that are elected, charged with supplying the specifications etc, cost over runs on the nimrod was reported to be an ever changing specification, if they stopped meddling and built the equipment as initially ordered and when completed then deploy and build in update capable racking, so that if they do improve a piece it can be swapped out, same goes for carriers, knowing those who are supposed to be qualified will ultimately have the vessels in constantly for 'upgrades' (or in actual fact putting right what they din't get right in the first place).
 
We will never have competent people doing the job that relies on the defence of this country (i.e. politicians and civil servants), russia is posing to reassert its world dominance with a large militry to bully its way into old realms and if they succeed, may go on to move into other less defended countries using the same tactic, and with the dithering likes of cameron, will let them. I could just see it now - camden council offices have been taken over by russian seperatists and by next week is annexed by russia - or any other so called super power.  >>:-(  oooo, its monday and thats got that little rant out of the way  {-)
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Bowwave

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2014, 10:52:23 am »

Almost  all countries  experience levels of incompetence  or interference  in military   procurement , some  having the luxury  to be accountable to no one  but just spend the money .  Yet   the Chinese Navy has taken delivery of its  83rd Type 022 stealth missile corvette for coastal  defence and operations in the South China Sea  . One of these  fast  little blighters  costing  $15million  each  and at  250 tons  packs a considerable punch for its size  and capable  of defeating  much larger warships . Eventually  over 100 of the  022s will be commissioned into the  PLAN Chinese Navy.   The Question is as an  island nation what do we have to defend our coast line  with? .
Bowwave 
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warspite

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2014, 12:25:33 pm »

at this rate, disused 18th century shore batteries  {-) , or in this technicalogical age, a couple of trabajes slinging a couple of scrap priuses at oncoming ships, SHORE based BATTERIES ya get it, boom boom  :embarrassed: , i'll pack my wardrobe for that one.
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Bowwave

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2014, 01:14:36 pm »

If history reminds us of anything  is big ships don't always mean  your nation state is safe . The last time  we learned  that  lesson  was the  from the Dutch  in 1667 when   Admiral de Ruyter  sailed up the river  Thames  and  Medway  and as they say had a field day and helped himself to the  pride of the English fleet  .  hope we don't need another lesson in defending our coast line.
Bowwave 
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ballastanksian

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2014, 07:07:50 pm »

It would be fair to say that today we have an airforce as well as a Navy, so we can project a multi level detterant. Unless the Chinese come through the north passage once the ice sheets have melted enough, I cannot see how the Chinese will threaten us militarily unless they lure the worlds navies into their home waters and unleash havoc. I just cannot see who would threaten us as we get on with all our coastal neighbours and Russia is just far enbough away for naval forces to be detected and met in reasonable time.

If something does hit the fan then I expect our Government will be tearing off a number of blank cheques to express the delivery of new vessels and the refits of existing ones. Ironically, the way they are buidling the new carriers is risky until all the bits have been welded together as it would be embarrassing if an enemy fleet sank a bit in transit leaving us with a ship with no bow, stern or middle.
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Bowwave

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2014, 08:54:36 pm »

The trouble with peace is we take it for granted.   We have very few warships patrolling  UK waters  and surprisingly  we still rely very much on overseas trade to survive  as we have done since the days of de Ruyter .   Not to mention our reliance on gas and oil production  in the North sea .   As for mustering new ship in times of real concern  I doubt we would be in an position to rely on the limited  construction   facilities we have allowed ourselves to be reduced to.  Admirals , like  those in government like prestige projects that  give the appearance  of naval power  but in reality  mean very little  when it comes to defending home turf.  Sadly we can't even  shoo away the troublesome  Spanish from   Gibraltar's  territorial waters.  I think that alone speaks volumes as to how we are able to defend our own coast from a determined  aggressor  and not all ships with hostile intent  would  be advertising  their presence .  If we can't show we are willing at least to defend our own coast line  with a suitable naval presence then one day a  de Ruyter will be  paying a return visit.
Bowwave
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dodes

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2014, 04:16:56 pm »

Here is a pic of Gib Airport in about 1986, at least 6 buccaneers plus others to keep the Spanish at bay.
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dodes

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2014, 04:17:59 pm »

Another pic using a longer lens.
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dougal99

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2014, 08:19:18 pm »

Yea but there was a NATO exercise on then and Dink Lemon was in his element  :police:
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dodes

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2014, 10:14:35 pm »

Exercise or not, every time the Spanish boats approached Gib waters, the Buccaneers would fly very low around Gib skimming the breakwaters, a really lovely sight to behold.
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raflaunches

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2014, 10:27:12 pm »

The buccs proved very helpful during the Belize problem in 1970ish, they over flew the capital at 250ft several times just to prove that the big fleet carrier Ark Royal IV could reach the area and strike if necessary. A good read of the Belize problem can be read in Phoenix Squadron by Roland White. 
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Nick B

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gingyer

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Re: Oversized warships?
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2014, 10:33:05 pm »

The buccs proved very helpful during the Belize problem in 1970ish, they over flew the capital at 250ft several times just to prove that the big fleet carrier Ark Royal IV could reach the area and strike if necessary. A good read of the Belize problem can be read in Phoenix Squadron by Roland White.


Great book I loved when the bucc was being intercepted on its return to ark royal by the US
And it just left the US plane behind as it hit the deck and went for it  :-))
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