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Author Topic: phoenix 870  (Read 8045 times)

harryw

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phoenix 870
« on: June 23, 2013, 07:54:42 pm »

ahoy skippers.
 
i am in need off any info for my first sailship.
i am kind off impressed on the Phoenix 870,can not find much information on her.


so maybe on this forum somone to help me,i would like to know if it is decent quality.
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 07:29:23 pm »

dear sailors.
 
what i have found sofar,manufactor is beili
http://www.beilimodel.cn/products_detail/&productId=5059acfd-edcd-49bd-bdb7-fa1b5201dc7d.html
they also make the hurricane/ century 750/triumpf 800.
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mrpenguin

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 12:42:51 am »

@harryw:
 
I have seen one of these. Yes it is made by Beili. It is very much like the other Beili boats, but looks a bit better.
I own two Beili boats - a Hurricane 1000 and a Discovery 500. In my opinion these are both very poor boats and I would not recommend Beili boats to anyone. I have been disappointed with the quality and the design all the way through.
 
Have a look at the Shunbo range at HobbyKing www.hobbyking.com - the Monsoon and the Legend are both 900mm so are pretty much the same size as the Phoenix 870.
I own a Monsoon - it is a fantastic boat for the money (currently US$130 approx) - I have also seen and raced against the Legend - in hindsight I wish I had bought a Legend. The Legend hatch is easier to make completely watertight than the Monsoon and the paint job is beautiful, much better than the photos show.
 
In my opinion, The Shunbo boats are head and shoulders above the Beili boats in finish, performance and value for money.
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__285__254__Boats_Parts-Sail_Boats.html
I am in no way associated with HobbyKing, just a satisfied customer.

Another one just released a little smaller is the Joysway Dragon Force (650mm) - this is a great performer for the size. Also its bigger brother the Focus (1000mm) is a great sailboat
Hope this helps...
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 07:10:57 pm »

thank you mrpenguin.
 
o no, i had hoped it was a good boat/ship i really like the colours and shape.
the hk legend looks nice too imo.
and yes reading the forums dragonforce/focus i have been thinking about them too.
also the thunder tiger victoria,lots of info and tuning parts for it.
maybe to much for a beginner,i am not sure yet.
 
 
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Boomer

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 09:12:40 pm »

thank you mrpenguin.
 
o no, i had hoped it was a good boat/ship i really like the colours and shape.
the hk legend looks nice too imo.
and yes reading the forums dragonforce/focus i have been thinking about them too.
also the thunder tiger Victoria,lots of info and tuning parts for it.
maybe to much for a beginner,i am not sure yet.

Harry
Please do not be concerned about being too much for a beginner. We were all beginners at one point! If you are at all handy with everyday tools, fix things around the house, you can successfully build a TT Victoria kit or a Tippecanoe or a Victor Models kit. It is nice to be able to start with a user friendly RTR (ready to  sail) boat but, it is not the only way to get started.

I am glad MrPenguin provided his insights on the boat you were considering. I agree with him and suggest that brand is focused on the toy market rather than to those of us that are avid RC Sailors and hobbyist. Enough said on that point.

I started out with a Nirvana and then got a Hobbyking Monsoon. From that modest beginning I have now owned and sailed 24 RC sailboats and number for RC power boats to boot. Guess you could say I was "hooked" on this hobby :-)) Amongst those, are a bunch of kit boats which is why I feel strongly about their value to new comers. They provide a great way to learn and as you learn and build a kit you will develop a pride of ownership you won't get from buying a ready to sail boat. Not saying you wouldn't enjoy an good RTR, just that when you put the kit together and sail her, there is an extra kick that comes every time you sail your boat.  O0

Here are a couple of links that will take you to two well respected model sailboat kit companies here in the US. They both have a number of different models to consider and provide good support to their customers
http://www.victor-model.com/
http://www.tippecanoeboats.com/

I suggest you take a few minutes to visit these two sites - check out their different models to is there is one that speaks to you.  Let us know what you think. I posted a picture of my current Victor 32, and V 12 Footy, my Victoria along with a picture of a Tippecanoe T 37.

Just food for thought - The kits come with very easy to follow instructions and I promise no fear is necessary.  O0

Boomer
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 11:10:14 pm »

thank you boomer.
yes i have been reading at the victor website,i like the blackhawk 32.
you have a nice fleet of boats.
btw.this question keeps comming back to me.
when to call it sailboat sailship or sailyacht.is it all depending the lenght or shape?
the boats on my wishlist are now hk legend and TT victoria.
i saw a really nice video on youtube of a victoria in race trim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TybDkWjawkc
i guess you already know it.
so it would be a good 100 for the boat(led incl.) 30 for a hitec 645 ,and later carbon mast and a set of sails.
servo for rudder i already have some laying around.
got to find out the lenght of the keel  seems that victoria is  shorter than legend.
 
 
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Boomer

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 11:47:33 pm »

thank you boomer.
yes i have been reading at the victor website,i like the blackhawk 32.
you have a nice fleet of boats.
btw.this question keeps comming back to me.
when to call it sailboat sailship or sailyacht.is it all depending the lenght or shape?
the boats on my wishlist are now hk legend and TT victoria.
i saw a really nice video on youtube of a victoria in race trim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TybDkWjawkc
i guess you already know it.
so it would be a good 100 for the boat(led incl.) 30 for a hitec 645 ,and later carbon mast and a set of sails.
servo for rudder i already have some laying around.
got to find out the lenght of the keel  seems that victoria is  shorter than legend.

Harry
The Victoria is a very shallow draft boat and is very good in ponds that are not very deep. The Legend requires a bit more water but not a lot. I had a Monsoon which is essentially the same boat as the Legend but with a different deck layout. The Legend in my mind is a better design - I had to make some  modifications to the Monsoon's hatch to make it water tight. There many posts on those things the HK boats need to make them truly seaworthy.
Nothing hard or expensive, just a few common sense upgrades.
Always have a rescue plan to recover your boat - the keels can get snagged on bottom vegetation or you can run out of wind - a good casting rod and reel can work well. If you use a rod and reel, be sure you don't hit your boat with the sinker! :embarrassed: Many of us use a power boat as a rescue craft besides it is a good excuse to get another boat! :-))

Posted a few pictures of possible rescue ideas. I have a personal favorite - let you guess which one that might be. :}
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mrpenguin

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 02:49:37 am »

My usual rescue method for smaller ponds is a mid weight fishing rod with a tennis or squash ball attached.
 
A ball casts well, there is less chance of damage to the boat, and it also floats.... I usually cast past / over the boat then reel it in so the line runs over the boat - you can generally snag part of the boat (or let the line go under the boat so it catches on the keel) and then bring it in with a reasonable degree of control. This method improves with practice - I have had a bit... :-) 
 
I always have the ball & rod in the car ready to go, only takes a minute to get it out and assemble the rod ready for a rescue...
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 06:44:22 am »

thanks gentlemen
 
yes the 2 resque options i had on my mind,sure beats swimming/wading.
now the tennisbal i find that a realy good idea.
i hate damaging precious things.
victoria seems to be the one favorit right now.
i will be reading the mods sailors do to their legends.
altough  there is a pond at 2 minutes walk from our house.
fully rigged the legend is a much taller yacht.i dont plan on buying a bigger car.
and there is still some messing with the led for keel weight.
also i like the colours of the legend more,the victoria looks a little dated.
  some paint ,decals custom sails  bring her up to par.
race colours do it for me,like the Phoenix tt etnz  naulantia and so on.
 
 
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mrpenguin

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2013, 02:33:00 pm »

@HarryW:
If size is a consideration, the Surmount (800 mm) from HobbyKing is a slightly smaller boat, may be worth a look perhaps. This has something of the classic look in white with blue trim, no cartoons on the sails....

As with the other Shunbo boats, you will need to add lead to the keel bulb. I added about 950 grams of small shot to mine, that is plenty for this boat.

Link to video of my Surmount in heavy weather is below. This boat is pretty much standard; the only changes made were to replace the bowsies on the standing rigging as they tend to break under load, generally during handling. I have since replaced the standing rigging with some Dyneema as the original rigging is a bit stretch when wet.
The other mod is a strip of (white) electrical tape around the hatch to waterproof it.

One of my favourite boats....
(You will notice this video is shot from inside the car, it was too rough be out in the weather!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j4aMejGjKcE
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2013, 03:18:47 pm »

mrpenguin.
 
yes i have seen that video,the surmount is much yacht for the money.
how hard was the wind blowing on that video.
if i had to guess would be 3 bft with gusts to 5 bft? so 7 to 20 knots roughly.
as for now i think the tt victoria is the one.
lots of info,build reports it cant go wrong. :o
found one for discount price,it will take 10 days for them to restock.
 
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mrpenguin

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 12:28:24 am »

mrpenguin.
 
...how hard was the wind blowing on that video.....
No idea, but it was much more pleasant sitting in the car sailing and filming!!!
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slug

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 08:08:03 am »

a good all round yacht could be a uk fiesta..try shallow draught sails in most winds...looks like a scaled down 1mtr tony
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 10:28:02 am »

dear friends.
mrpenguin ok very wise it is not worth getting a cold or worse,
tony yes i just been on their website,but made my mind up.victoria it is going to be.
it hardly cant go wrong,with lots of build blogs and exelent video's.
look what i have found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjok9-P_Pzg
cant believe my luck.(having fun already)
 
 
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jaymac

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 01:08:32 pm »

Worth looking here to unless already done so
http://www.okanaganmodelsailboat.org/Step-by-Step.html
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 08:33:40 pm »

ahoy sailors.
 
well finally today my victoria had her maiden(me too was my first try of sailing)only water she tasted were raindrops on assembling in the garden.and some salt ones from here owner..
have red in other topics she can be build in a few hours,ooops not this one.
did not want to make any mistakes,i kept on checking a lot of things,meanwhile getting nowhere.
 
so first checked the hull sanded the little inperfections.the keel and rudder where off center.
i put the hull upside down and measured with capenters square,and filed the deckholes.
and epoxied the shafts.drilled a hole in the top of ruddershaft,and placed a wire to be save.
changed out the mast and boom for 10mm  and 8mm carbon ones.wow looks sort of racey  already.
i am a  fan of bill shorney, a great video on you tube can be found with lots of info about the victoria.
for the rigging i went for single arm with double pulley at the arm,and another pulley on the rear deck.
so no holes in the deck.for servos i went HK cheap a 1201 mg 12 kg  of force at 4.8 volts and 60 grams i guess it will do.
i squished out a throw of  104 degrees on my futaba 7c.
mounted the servo on wooden t beams made of the leftover wood for the stand.
the rudder i mounted okanagan style. rigging lines a had to learn some knots bowline double reef French 8.pfff
now that did take  me a while,it is different practicing with a thick rope,or the thin rigging lines on her.
finally adjusting the sheets this video i found real helpfull http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwk8DTptrwY
i must confess , first time i saw it i was just listening..
well with the summer we had the fan in action on the very hot days,so why not use it to fine tune the boat.
so with the lines tighter here and there some slack at other points,i was getting somewhere.
not quit to my liking though,so why not trow in a topping lift line.
so i did and to my beginners eye it was rather pleasing.fine curves in the jib and main.
the end of jibboom i have set to the shroud lines,mainboom further in about the inner line of the transom.
now cog o dear according to mr.shorney it should be just behind the keel.mine was mmm 20 mm behind.
well i will take my change,at least she wont submerge downwind was me thinking.
batteries charged and of to the pond,it is a 2 minute walk and had to watch out for the wind as it was pulling already at the sails.
the pond was not for me alone some sportfishers in action to.
i was detected immediatly no wonder virgin white sails making sound already,but the boys showed a kind interest.
so switches on(i did not forged the comment that it is a strange sight the owner try to swim faster than his boat)
and of she went,the wind was not so strong at the bank.no ripples in the water.
it looked like she was build for it sailing at about 45 degrees in to the wind,well i certainly did my best..)
the water was flat like a mirror and my vickyr leaving behind a beautiful  trail .
futher out the wind was stronger and she healed over,immediatly turning in to the wind.'
hmm some tuning required,me very hapy althoug the wind was coming and going.
a had some real nice runs,one downwind with her sails fully out bowwave and all.
steered her close to the bank and the wave she created hit the bank with a nice sound.
i get a taste for a lot more.
will let you know.and special thanks to all captains who helped me mr. boomer  mr.mrpenguin mr,jaymac and on.
 
 
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 09:14:59 pm »

o she does not leak,and some pictures of her.
 
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2013, 09:19:58 pm »

and another one.
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mrpenguin

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2013, 11:45:30 pm »

@HarryW:

Congratulations on your maiden voyage! Beautifully described if I may say so.

"further out the wind was stronger and she healed over, immediately turning in to the wind.'
hmm some tuning required....."

What you are describing here is called "weather helm" - the tendency of the boat to turn into the wind in a puff. This is caused by the mainsail providing more drive than the jib. You can reduce this by adding a bit more curve to the mainsail or reducing the curve of the jib a little (by lengthening the topping lift).

If you find you are getting weather helm when pointing close to the wind, sheeting the jib boom in a little compared to the main boom will help.
 
You also mentioned COG - centre of gravity??  The two items usually of interest with a sailboat are CLR (centre of lateral resistance, relating to the pieces of the boat in the water) and COE (centre of effort, relating to positioning of the sail area). It is usual to have COE slightly behind CLR to get a little weather helm, gives the boat some "feel".
 

Happy sailing!
 
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 03:54:22 pm »

mrpenguin.
 
well thank you,as a beginner i felt like owing a story in return of all the info i nicked of the internet.
and yes thats what i thought i would be, weatherhelm.thanks for the advice.i will try it out.
o lots of tuning still to do.i can not wait for a nice sailing day.the manual talks about weather and leehelm too.
their advice is to rake the mast a little for or aft. will try your aproach first.
by the way,dare i to say this.well i try, is it so that the setup of the boat is Always with a little compromise here and there?
i mean a perfect setup for lets say,a wind of 5 knots will be off when the wind gets stronger? or even far of in a gust.
now for the cog,i stand corrected  coming from rc planes and helis i mixed it up.
mr.shorney was talking about the balance .4.30 in his video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TybDkWjawkc
now for the clr and coe,maybe a little early for me but will look into that.
thank you.
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Boomer

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 04:54:45 pm »

Harry
This is a link to a friends Victoria build - within it is a video from a well known RC sailor on tuning tips for this boat.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1973634&page=3

Here is a direct link to the video "RC Victoria Tuning Seminar with Bill Shorney" if you want to skip the build thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TybDkWjawkc&feature=youtu.be

Enjoy
Boomer

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Boomer

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 05:32:43 pm »

Tried to edit my previous post - once I realized the duplication of the tuning video information. A little slow on the draw. Sorry about that  ok2

Boomer
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 06:21:50 pm »

thats alright mr.boomer
yes been reading lilleyens build ,mine looks very similar.expept for the rigging.
i was thinking ,why we dont make a thread about tt victoria with all the links and info and builds.
found another great video,summer is on its leave here. the swimming pools are on sale..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63oQyPtOUk
 
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Boomer

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 07:13:53 pm »

That would be a good idea. It'd be great to have an archive for the different build threads for the many boats out there. I use the search feature to help me find them.

I don't think I mentioned I am building a CR 914 and a CR 610 and a new Seawind kit I was lucky enough to find. The CR boats look very much like the Victoria but just  a tad leaner - I like their looks over the Victoria but still have fond memories of my Vic. Looking forward to finishing these boats and to getting to best part, sailing them. Got another MM I am building as well. Not sure what I was thinking, maybe "so many boats, so little time" I don't know for sure. I do know that is it for a while!  %%

Building is fun, but sailing them is more fun! Posted a couple of images of the Seawind (bottom) the CR 914 and the CR 610 on top of each other. All are in painting prep stages. Also posted a few of the CR boats completed

Better get back to working on these little treasures before the wife figures out just how many boats I just got!  ;)
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harryw

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Re: phoenix 870
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 09:21:08 am »

boomer.
 
i am impressed,so many boats.you dont need a bigger house but a small harbour..
i really like the shape too,do you make the sails yourself?
o yes dont forget the wife,i get away with it with flowers or chocolate.a little kiss once in a while do miracles too.(the best things in live are free.)
the seawind i find a pretty yacht too,comments say she is one off the best arf's
maybe a little tall for me with transport,the cr914 i will look into.would be something nice for the wintertime.
o i was set back a little after reading this build.
WARNING your builder skills may get hurt a little(mine did for sure)
http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/zeilschepen/181075-het-zit-erop-gamesa-imoca-60f.html
took him 4 solid years,dont say i did not warn you mr.boomer.
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