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Author Topic: IRON DUKE 1914  (Read 112707 times)

ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #200 on: November 05, 2015, 10:05:56 PM »

Providing the shades do not alter across the model I would paint the whole model and then put a coat of matt varnish over the whole lot.

The Military modelling fraternity put a coat of Johnson's Klear or Future floor polish over a model to seal in the paintwork and any special paint effects such as hairspray chipping before the weathering process begins, but as you want it matt only, I would go for a coat of matt varnish all over (probably missing out the decks etc:O)

I look forward to seeing more photos of this brilliant build Geoff. Your orchestra of fans will impart a sound like turbines running.
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Pondweed

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #201 on: November 11, 2015, 10:23:08 PM »

They look splendidly Naval with all the brasswork:O) The end of the boom looks exquisite as well Geoff.

The derrick?
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #202 on: November 11, 2015, 10:24:53 PM »

Excuse my memory for nautical terms! I am Ian by the way not Derrick :-) Sorry, I had to get that one in!!
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Pondweed

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #203 on: November 11, 2015, 11:33:00 PM »

Excuse my memory for nautical terms! I am Ian by the way not Derrick :-) Sorry, I had to get that one in!!

Yes, well we all make mistakes.
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Pondweed

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #204 on: November 11, 2015, 11:59:41 PM »

Geoff
I hope this post is of help.

The plan view of the rangefinder hood is representative only and not exact, I made mine as a rectangle with rounded corners, it has arms that protrude either end for the RF optics and the port side of the face has a curved bump.

The photos of Queen mary show both sides.
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #205 on: November 12, 2015, 08:24:04 AM »

Thank you for the additional input which as always is appreciated. I have plans of ID conning tower and rangefinder hood from "Warship" - there was an article on fire control which explained how it was developed and how the shape came about. Earlier ships had round conning toweres (KGV class/Orion) but with ID they expanded the sides to include additional positions for the 6" guns which is why you get the "Diamond" type shape. This was sucessfull and was repeated in the QE class. What is not apparent from the plan view is that beneath the rangfinder was a spotting hood, to spot the fall of shot. This was really a duplication of the foretop, the idea was the foretop could not be protected other than a splinter floor as no ship could carry 12" armour at that height so splinter protection was all that could be provided. They would use the foretop director and rangefinder antil they were put out of action. The multiple rangefinders in ID were used to get an average range and then spotting used to correct the fire until a straddle was achieved.
 
The first picture by the way is of the rear superfiring turret of Neptune - the turrets are of a more angular design and there is a rear tripod. I know this because I have a 6ft model of Neptune as well! Built many years ago back in 1974!
 
I have been building deck fittings, anchors, deck hatches, ventilators and the like. Pictures to follow if I get a chance this weekend.
 
I also took delivery of the PC fans for the gunfire system - very dissapointed as they were advertised at 8.9CFM and produce less volume than the one I have at 7.0CFM! Something isn't adding up here! All very frustrating as absent a source of reasonably cheap powerfull 40mm x 40mm PC fans then my gunfire system can't be built!
 
If anyone knows of a source of proven powefull fans do please let me know. I need three or six if I stack them.
 
Thanks
 
Geoff
 
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derekwarner_decoy

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #206 on: November 12, 2015, 09:37:43 AM »

Geoff

Could I suggest that the rather miniscule air displacement [~~8 CFM] of the blade fans you mention is also assumed as based upon CFM@FAD [free air delivery] ie., back to atmosphere, therefore the fans are displacement air acceleration elements, not air pressure force elements 

So any restriction placed in the discharge plenum of the fan will reduce the FAD by a rather complex >>:-( calculation amount ...however simply put, the easiest way to understand the reduction in FAD [by restriction] in such basic elements is by an inverse increase in current consumption of the electric motor

Direct piggybacking two fans of 7 CFMFAD [on one common suction] would possibly provide ~~8 or 9 CFMFAD total prior to the restriction

The same two 7 CFMFAD fans with independent suctions will provide ~~ 14 CFMFAD prior to that same total restriction........  O0

I hope this makes some sense........Derek

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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #207 on: November 12, 2015, 09:51:38 AM »

It does, thank you. Its kind of what I figured when considering piggybacking two fans. However the 7CF fan in laymans terms, when measured by the good old fashioned hand, delivers significantly more air flow than the 8.9CFM which is what is puzzling me. The unscientific measurement suggests something in the region of 4 times!
 
How do I know the 7CF is indeed a 7CF? Basically I Googled the make/model number and it gave me the specifications but they are old and no longer available.
 
You can get 4cm x 4cm fans up to 17CFM and more but they tend to be server fans rather than PC fans and I can't find a reasonable cost option. In the US about $5-$7 each v 15  each in the UK.
 
The obvious thing is that maybe the 7CF fan isn't what it appears to be. I'll do some more checking and will report back. This would explain why the 8.9CF fans are comming out weak - maybe they do indeed give 8.9CF but I'm comparing them to something rather special which I didn't realise was something special - murphy's law is alive and well!
 
Thanks
 
Geoff
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #208 on: November 12, 2015, 09:38:01 PM »

Looking at the images that Pondweed put up, I noticed the clear image of the twin searchlights and their mounts. If only this had trned up a year ago when you were scrabbling around for references. That image alone has enough detail to build from. Brilliant find Pondweed.

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Pondweed

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #209 on: November 16, 2015, 01:59:05 PM »


If your fans are a bit lacking, here's an idea from the left-field but why don't you inflate a party balloon with your smoke? Then once your valve is let go, the balloon will doing the blowing .. or pushing!

Though if I remember my physics right, you only recieve the same energy output as you impart (input). So as an experiemnt, try blowing down a drinking straw to understand what you're asking a PC fan to do. [edit: you're focussing on CFM which is volume, volume is not the same as force or pressure or PSI.]

So you may need a compressor ... but can you compress atomised or particle-ised air? I don't know I've never tried. I have lit one of those plumbers tablets they use to test chimneys, to use the Spinal Tap line, they DO go to number 11 and I once gave thought to having a RC boat that would lay 'smoke screens'.
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #210 on: November 16, 2015, 02:14:24 PM »

Oddley enough I had thought of that but the problem is where do I fit the balloon!
 
Good idea though!
 
keep em comming!
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
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warspite

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #211 on: November 16, 2015, 02:45:03 PM »

fans stacked need different blade profiles so there acumulative effect is negligible
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2015, 03:11:16 PM »

In terms of increased CFM I concur but my research shows that the static pressure nearly doubles. At least that's what the boffins say on various IT sights
 
G
 
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Ian K

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2015, 07:48:11 PM »

Hi Geoff,

Just a thought on your air flow issue... why not use a small 12v dc Tyre inflation compressor, pumping air into a small expanding bag or a pressure vessel. Then you could release the air through an electronically controlled solenoid valve? to each individual barrel or turret group. With fairly low pressures, you could get away with using silicon tube and tie wraps to secure them to the breach end of the barrels.....just a thought.

Ian
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #214 on: November 16, 2015, 10:26:49 PM »

Ha! You beat me to it Ian. That is a fab idea especially as it removes the need for lots of fans and attendant wiring. You might also be able to introduce particulate release to give you the clouds of cordite smoke.

Sadly Potassium chlorate is illegal to purchase, so that is not an available source of smoke.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #215 on: November 16, 2015, 11:00:37 PM »

Those little compressors can be very noisy though...

Colin
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2015, 02:19:48 PM »

That's the problem I figured as well, also lots of vibration. They also work at quite high pressure and can get up to 50/60 PSI if not more which is probably excessive for what I need.
 
I had thought about using a small air (piston/peristaltic type pump) to charge up an air reservoir which I could then discharge with a solenoid valve, but this means pressure tanks etc which introduce further complications.
 
Or use a rechargeable air horn canister but they work out at about 15/20 each and take up quite a lot of volume. If I have any kind of pressure vessel then volume begins to be a problem as not only does the vessel have to be sufficiently large to give say 100/200 strong puffs of air but I still need a volume container for each of the smoke generators to hold the smoke. This is why I had though about using PC fans as they can suck/blow as much air as they like and take little space. A number of the main ventilators on the deck will be working to provide an air flow to the guns and the funnel smoke.
 
I have also though about using one central fan unit ducted with 1/2" diameter piping. This may be viable as some of the fan pumps can be used in model aeroplanes for electric flightand give a good pressure surge very quickly.
 
At the moment I'm still building various deck hatches and fittings, bollards, fairleads, boats, cranes etc so I still have time to work on the gun system. However I just want to see her with some guns in place!
 
I'll have to have another concerted try at the fan system to see if it really is viable and prioduces enough smoke using any kind of fan I can get then it "just" becomes a question of finding the right fan!! Yeah, right!
 
All ideas most welcome because if I can crack it then we all have a model gunfire system with multiple shots and 110% safe and reliable - that's the real goal.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
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warspite

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #217 on: November 17, 2015, 06:09:59 PM »

Little bit of history - we supply fans to companies around the globe mainly centrifugal for the plastics industry, several years ago we supplied axials for a Russian contract, they were run and standby and one attached to the front of the other, so not so dissimilar to what you first mentioned (though a lot smaller, ours were 16-19 inch in diameter), they required different impellers as the first impeller compressed the are such that the second had to have a different profile to account for this compression factor.
I am not saying that this is noticible in the size of fans you are using but it is a scaleable effect and actually may be negligible in the grand scheme of things.

On another thought a sales rep was doing a little R&D of his own in which he changed the inlet of one of these fans with some other alterations and created a small centrifugal that was quite powerful, unsure as what the final voltage he used was, as he had connected it to a transformer, will see if I can find any details he may have left.
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knoby

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #218 on: November 17, 2015, 06:16:36 PM »

Hi Geoff, are you aware of something called an Air Bazooka (which is actually a toy) but more commonly known as a vortex cannon. They are to big for your application, but the principal may be of use. certainly worth  Google.


Glenn
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #219 on: November 18, 2015, 02:06:42 PM »

Never heard of a vortex cannon - Googled it and oh wow!
 
A whole new line of development to consider! Thank you!
 
My brother in law had suggested a diaphram but we were focussing on the volume of air that would be displaced by its movement not on the shock wave/pulse effect. Found a video clip with smoke in side a large vortex cannon and it blew smoke rings 20 feet and knocked paper cups of the audience heads.
 
Interestingly the actual volume of air displacement seemed to be quite small as once filled with smoke they did this at least a dozen times without refilling with smoke.
 
Also the inherent design has a relativly large diaphram and a small exit hole so its certainly worth experimenting as this is fundamentally the set up I need. Question is will the shockwave/pulse pass down a thin tube?
 
In general I probably have room for about a 6" cube which is why I figgured to use a PC fan as when you add air to smoke it significantly increases the effective volume of the smoke, hence my focus on PC fan CFM. A shot should last about 1-2 seconds maximum so I need to displace a 6" cube of smoke/air in that time frame through a small hole. Reverse engineering suggestes I need quite powerfull PC fans to achieve the volume displacement but a vortex cannon appears to rely on the shock wave/pulse affect rather than pure volume.
 
Might have a busy weekend comming up!
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John W E

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #220 on: November 18, 2015, 04:12:31 PM »

hi

Have you ever considered using the internals of the cheap airsoft gun?   My son does airsoft and on one or 2 occasions he has given me one of his broke hand airsoft guns to repair - electronic failure in the switches etc and I have often thought about using the internals to fire pellets from barrels of guns and warships.   In your case you could us it to propel the air from the barrels with a mixture of smoke.

Just a thought, you may have already thought of it.

Aye
John
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Geoff

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #221 on: December 11, 2015, 02:11:02 PM »

Still progressing with the model and have been building steam launches (3 of) and ships boats (one actually!). Only another 10 of different sizes to go!
 
I'm making the boats in plastic card using a male mold/female mold in plaster then heating the plastic card and pressing out a hull shell. then all the interior detail to be done which is really what takes all the time.
 
I'll try to get some pictures up shortly but she is looking good!
 
G
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #222 on: December 11, 2015, 10:31:13 PM »

There is doubting that Geoff. The boats do seem to be a major part of a capital ship project. Even my little destroyer can have two boats and two/three dinghies!


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PeachyPM

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #223 on: December 12, 2015, 09:18:27 AM »

Geoff,
I'm planning on using a mini Co2 canister, the sort that fits in an old fashioned soda making machine.
The idea will be to replace the trigger with a solinoid that's fired by an RC switch.
I'm going to build/use a water atomiser wich will fill a reservoir of atomised water vapor which then gets blasted via silicone tubes and manifolds to all 8 main guns on my 1/144 H39 "William der Grosse" (un-built bigger than the Bismarck H series super battleship)
Don't hold your breath to see it working as it's right at the back of the project list!  :embarrassed:
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ballastanksian

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Re: IRON DUKE 1914
« Reply #224 on: December 12, 2015, 10:32:17 AM »

That would remove the space hungry fans and the like, just leaving the solenoid valves and a holder for the canister.
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