Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Iran's Envoy tug build  (Read 12707 times)

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Iran's Envoy tug build
« on: June 24, 2013, 10:31:50 pm »

I am starting an Envoy build and will be installing a Saito T2DR Steam Engine. I will have some questions over the build period and hopefully I can continue posting them here on this thread.

The prop shaft is M5 x .8 and the Saito output shaft is 4mm. Searching the internet I found several suppliers of a do it yourself coupling where I can put a threaded insert in one end and a smooth insert in the other end. M5 inserts are readily available as well as the 4mm smooth insert. Never having used one of these couplings and not available in the US, I sent requests to several suppliers asking if I am on the right track but no response. Am I on the right track and should I just order the parts and not wait for a response. It is very frustrating that very little or no hardware of this type is locally available.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Iran Ausley
Logged

essex2visuvesi

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,134
  • Location: Finland, England, Finland!
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 06:23:02 am »

First question... where abouts are you?


If you mean the Huco type coupling

then they are ok but a little noisy in operation and in my opinion look wrong next to a steam engine.
Have a look for an all brass or all stainless version.
I have seen on the web somewhere someone makes all brass ones to your requirements, but can't find it now


Or these ones
http://modelboatbits.com/shop/category_POWERFLEX%2520COUPLINGS/POWERFLEX-COUPLINGS.html?sessid=B4Ce7uUPEzffOyf21ggUJ1stGcArKwW85JEHp4uXceHL37oNiCYR54wcWPNFzCfj&shop_param=cid%3D%26
If they dont have what you need on the website email them and they will make it up for you
Logged
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity
Proud member of the OAM  (Order of the Armchair Modeller)
Junior member of the OGG  (Order of the Grumpy Git)

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,485
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 06:52:36 am »

Hi ir3.......this is Derek from PD's..... %) .......
You could search her on Mayhem......there was recently a long thread about couplings & their shortcomings  >>:-( will your engine be seen next to the coupling?.......
20 years ago I used the HUCO coupling as shown by e2v.....& had no issues what so ever running it with a 12 volt car ventilation fan motor........no vibration at relatively low speeds
1. Why not post some pictures of the Envoy
2. Are you going with a conventional gas fired boiler this time?........Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

essex2visuvesi

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,134
  • Location: Finland, England, Finland!
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2013, 07:16:00 am »

Hi ir3.......this is Derek from PD's..... %) .......
You could search her on Mayhem......there was recently a long thread about couplings & their shortcomings  >>:-( will your engine be seen next to the coupling?.......
20 years ago I used the HUCO coupling as shown by e2v.....& had no issues what so ever running it with a 12 volt car ventilation fan motor........no vibration at relatively low speeds
1. Why not post some pictures of the Envoy
2. Are you going with a conventional gas fired boiler this time?........Derek


Don't get me wrong that style coupling is perfectly servicable, but when fitted alongside a steam engine it looks cheap.  After spending god knows what on a steam setup why ruin it with a plastic coupler?
Logged
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity
Proud member of the OAM  (Order of the Armchair Modeller)
Junior member of the OGG  (Order of the Grumpy Git)

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 07:26:06 am »

Hi Derek, e2v,

Nice hearing from you. A lot has happened since my short stay at PD's. The Delta Queen and the running gear for it have moved on. I started back in giant scale model aircraft until I found my desire was bigger than the space I have to store them so it's back to boats. I liked the idea of a steam powered Envoy Admiralty version. Easy build and easy to manage.

The power plant is a T2DR and a Macsteam boiler. I am in the early stages of the build and I am at the point where I need to do the initial fitting of the steam engine to the prop shaft. I have an order in for the HUCO coupling but I like the couplings that e2v suggested and will probably order some parts from them also. I can experiment with both.

I didn't plan on a build thread but perhaps I will. The only build threads are with electric so this one could concentrate on the steam plant installation.

I will either start a new build thread or just update this one.

Until next time,

Iran
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,485
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2013, 08:10:55 am »

ir3.....there are may steam build threads here on Mayhem...so if you feel disposed ...please use this tread for your build........as time progresses you can ask a Moderator the retitle the thread & this way we capture everything from day 1
The decision to use a Macsteam boiler sounds a good idea :-)) 
I understand exactly what e2v is saying about the visual of couplings on steam engines & have recently taken delivery of two flywheels from Winfried Niggle to act as coupling's on my Y2DR horizontal SAITO engine........ the down side is they have naturally have no resilience at all  >>:-(  ...so will need to think more about this ....Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,331
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2013, 08:47:23 am »


Sure, what title would you like?
Martin
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

oldiron

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,326
  • Location: Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2013, 11:29:57 am »

You may find this thread of interest with regard to model boat couplings:

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,33847.0.html

John
Logged

oldiron

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,326
  • Location: Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2013, 11:35:49 am »

Logged

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 06:54:54 am »

I have the Powerflex coupler on order. It will be a while but with the length of the coupler I can position the engine with a dummy part made from dowell. Now comes some other basic questions. The steam engine will either be mounted on rails or a plywood board. I plan on completely painting the interior of the hull in gray. I will be water proofing everything that will go into the hull. Do I need any special treatment for mounting the steam engine, i.e. insulation.

For the boiler, it will be hidden but I am told that putting the cladding on will improve the efficiency of the boiler. Should I put on cladding?. It seems that the interior of the hull surrounding the boiler should be protected with perhaps aluminum foil or some kind of insulation.

As you can see, I have never completely installed a steam plant before but I have one or two more projects lined up after this one so the experience gained here will be very useful.

Once I start laying out the steam plant installation I will be asking the moderator to change the name to "Envoy build with steam engine installation" Since the rest of the build is quite ordinary, the thread will deal mainly with Steam Plant issues.

Thanks for all the help,

Iran
Logged

Jerry C

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Location: Caernarfon, North Wales.
Re: Coupling For Envoy Build
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 10:32:43 am »

This all sounds very interesting and I am looking forward to the rest of the build and lots of pictures. I have no experience of enclosed steam plants so I defer to others who have. I would say however that the whole plant should be quickly and easily removeable from the model in one piece. This is for fueling, cleaning, oiling, drying and adjusting/repair. Make any water connections to the hull using silicone tubing as this can easily be popped off and replaced many times with the fingers. Servo linkages need to be designed and arranged with simple, easy removal in mind. The propshaft coupling also needs to be simple and easy to join up and separate. In use a steam plant splashes an appreciable amount of oil and water and as such, although the boats inner compartments have been waterproofed, this still needs to be removed to avoid mould and worse. The words plywood, heat, water and oil don't mix even if marine ply. Mounting your steam plant on an aluminium or brass tray with the edges turned up and the corners sealed goes a long way to ease removal, contain water and keep the boat clean. The boiler and any steam pipes should be lagged for efficiency reasons but also to avoid burnt fingers when fiddling around when things is hot. I can't speak about insulating the boat itself. My launch is an open boat with only a canopy. Nothing outside of the tray gets hot. A dolls house bucket mounted close to the Maccsteam burner secondary air vent does get hot as does the lower sight glass fitting which causes the water in the tube to bubble. This was cured by a small aluminium screen.
Jerry.

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,331
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 12:53:42 pm »


Topic renamed.   :-)

Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

craggle

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 369
  • Boaty McBoatface
  • Location: Horsham, West Sussex
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 03:00:19 pm »

Is this a model slipway kit you're building?

Just curious if your building from the kit or scratch building? I have the model slipway kit and built it as electric power as I figured once the cabins were in place you wouldn't see any of the nice steam bits anyway.

Interested to see how it goes though so post lots of pictures.  :-)


Craig.
Logged
Model Slipway Envoy tug built.
Huge Lifeboat under construction.

Circlip

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,735
  • Location: North of Watford, South of Hadrians wall
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 03:25:45 pm »

Use Shuttle teknowleggy for engine/boiler room lining, Ceramic paper 3mm (1/8") thick and make sure all pipes a lagged and all vents from engine room work to save starving the burner of air. Lagging boiler is also an advantage, keeps heat in and saves burnin yer ands. :}
 
  Regards  Ian.
Logged
You might not like what I say, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
What I said is not what you  think you heard.

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2013, 01:11:12 am »

Well, I guess one has to start at the beginning. The ports are cut in the hull and deck shelves are in. The stuffing box is in temporarily to get the steam engine placed. With the position of the prop shaft, the engine sits about 5mm above the hull which allows the output shaft to line up. Not being a metal worker I am putting the engine on hardwood blocks and will work the blocks down to get an exact fit or the engine output shaft to the prop shaft. I have a Powerflex coupling being assembled for me and a backup. In the meantime, when the garage cools down a bit I will make a dummy coupling of the correct length in order to get the steam engine mounts in correct alignment.

Two basic pics to follow:

The first just showing the engine on the raw wood mounts with wood screws. These will probably be switched out for machine screws and blind nuts before fastening the mounts to the hull.

The second shows the relative position of the engine, 52mm back from the stuffing box. The length of the Powerflex coupling is 52mm so I will probably mount it about 55-56mm back from the stuffing box.

Until next time,

IR3

P.S. I forgot to mention that the difference in height of the prop shaft and the output shaft is 4mm so I have a good deal of wood to work with to get the alignment exact.

Logged

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2013, 08:23:31 pm »

The mounts for the steam engine are complete. The pic shows the engine temporarily in place. The engine is vertical and very close to being on the center line. My wooden temporary coupling is not exactly centered.

Next operation is to get the prop shaft epoxied in place. The blind nuts need to be installed on the engine mounts and then they will also be epoxied in.

Looking ahead, Derek, if you are following this I need to make an exhaust manifold. I like what you did on the Y2DR. Did you get all the parts from Winifred. Could you send me a list of the parts that I need to order. Thanks in advance.

Until next time,

IR3


Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,485
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2013, 12:36:12 am »

ir3........those 4.06 mm OD exhaust tube are orientated differently with the 2DR to the Y2DR  >>:-( ...however
Winfried manufactures 2 bolt flanges which are o-ring sealed....so I asked him to manufacture 5 pr of flanges [16 OD] to suit 4 mm OD tube and 4 x M2.5 bolt holes    #140 420, however without gaskets but with o-ring sealing
 
The 4 mm tube equal tee piece is not his but his equivalent part number is # SP 115 104
Naturally the Niggle fittings accepted the 4.06 mm OD Japanese brass tubing
Both the Y2DR & the 2DR have the original lubricator as the last component prior to the engine steam inlet port.........the instructions with my steam regulator valve that it should be placed after the lubricator....so I removed the original Saito lubricator and installed a Niggle quartz tubed lubricator on the discharge side of the boiler
I find Winfried a great guy to deal with........ :-)) ....Derek
 
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,485
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2013, 01:54:48 am »

ir3......just a few things
1. I am sure the Niggle 2 bolt o-ring sealed oval flanges would be totally acceptable......it was the low cost differential between 2 bolt & 4 bolt & so chose the added visual aspect of the 4 bolt
2. The way Winfried markets these flanges is most competitive with conventional tube unions  O0  & so much more realistic
3. I am not a fan of considering using a 1.2 mm thick full face gasket in a 16 mm OD  flange  >>:-( ...you really need to use a 1.2 mm metal spacer during the soldering process or the flanges will never be truly square when the gasket is installed...just so much easier bolting the o-ring sealed versions up [without o-rings %) ]....soldering & the final joints can be assembled complete with the O-rings etc
4. What brand or type of R/C controlled steam regulator will you be using?
6. Check the Niggle WEB site to ensure that I have quoted the correct numbers............Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2013, 02:08:56 am »

Hi Derek,

Thanks for all of the excellent input on the fittings. Yes, the T2DR has an exhaust port that just clears the reversing lever. I have to check the space that I have to see if I can re-orient them. I do not have a RC steam regulator as of yet. That is next. Taking your lead I will be ordering a lubricator from Winfried as well as the fittings. I did order some items from him back in the DQ days and yes, a delight to deal with.

Cheers,

Iran
Logged

Jerry C

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,254
  • Location: Caernarfon, North Wales.
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2013, 09:08:19 am »

I have been admiring Derek's flanges and have heard of winfried before but never found the website until this am. It's the spelling of Niggel that has thwarted me. I thought it didn't look like a German word. Anyway for those who haven't found it it's www.modellbau-niggel.de Some very nice kit on there.
Jerry.

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,485
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2013, 09:54:18 am »

Sorry... a little off track.........I put http://www.modellbau-niggel.de/ on the PD's link WEB site a few years back....& had just assumed MBM knew of this manufacturer
As previously mentioned.........Winfried is a great guy to deal with :-)) ........
ir3 won't mind the intrusion as he is a  http://www.modellbau-niggel.de supporter  O0 ............Derek
 
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2013, 05:15:18 am »

No problems, any information that is helpful is certainly welcome on this thread. I started on the rear deck plastic this morning. Several problems have arisen. The styrene under deck was too big for the shape of the hull and needed some trimming. The instructions provide for that but the issue comes from the fact that the installation of the deck supports must be done very carefully. Apparently I must have cause the hull to bow in when the supports were installed. I strongly recommend that spacers be used when installing the shelves to make sure that the hull is not pulled in. I will have to install spacers but they will not show and do not hinder the installation of the deck.

It appears that the steam engine will be a tight fit and not directly under the hatchway. It will require a little shaving to get the engine in properly and I now need to think of how I am going to plumb the engine so it can be removed.

Until next time,

IR3
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 8,485
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2013, 07:58:37 am »

ir3......... >>:-( you have a few space issues here......
1. the T2DR engine steam inlet manifold can be reversed 180 degrees so it is facing AFT ....this would also allow for the alternate Niggle quartz tubed lubricator to be installed FWD  of the steam regulator & engine where both would be accessible for maintenance ........
2. the FWD cylinder head cover appears to have every little clearance with the decking.......that same cylinder head cover will get to say 130 degrees C  <*< during use & this radiant heat will I suspect melt the decking above <:( .........
Possibly best to review a few points prior to installing the decking........Derek
 
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

ir3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 53
  • Location: Southern California, USA
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 05:08:00 pm »

A simple fix to the clearance problem was to cut out the deck coaming revealing significant space to manage the maintenance/removal of the engine. The deck still has to be moved aft several mm to complete the exact fit. As far as insulating the deck I defer to the experienced. Should I use the ceramic paper suggested in an earlier post or just use some reflective aluminum foil, or maybe nothing since there is now plenty of clearance.

Until next time,

IR3
Logged

andywright

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Barry, South Wales
    • Windpowersails
Re: Iran's Envoy tug build
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2013, 08:51:40 pm »

Mobile Marine Models will do a coupling  that will take your Saito twin. You will need the heavt duty one.


http://www.mobilemarinemodels.com/
Theycome highly recommended, just drop them an email for a price.


Regrds Andy
Logged
Navigational Aids vessel Master. Old Conway 70-72
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up