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Author Topic: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought  (Read 107166 times)

Pondweed

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2013, 02:14:09 AM »


 


Some mind boggling detail on the Vengeance model: that torpedo net shelf looks to be soldered wire strips into a frame.I also look at the working hinges, with visible fixings. I put working hinges on certain areas of mine and it's things like this that eat time and enthusiasm away.Mine nows sits in pieces, very nice pieces, but still unassembled.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2013, 05:10:41 PM »

Hi Victorian


Thanks for the picture of the Vengence for reference, it'll certainly help with the detail work.
I received my copy of Warship Vol VII on Friday and I have been reading it in all my spare moments at work during my tea breaks! I have definitely decided to build HMS Prince George, the third of the Majestics to be built in 1895. Reading about the modifications carried out on Prince George compared to her sisters I was curious about the reference to having 'larger starfish' than Majestic. Doesn't give how much bigger they were than other Majestics but at least I know to modify them closer to the time, I also have to create 'stepped masts' to identify her from her sisters.
I managed to buy a photo off eBay of Prince George when she was completed in her Victorian colours, hopefully it will be reasonably clear to see some of the detail work!


Hi Pondweed, hopefully one day you'll finish her... I'm still trying to finish a model I started 8 years ago!
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 10:28:12 PM »

Hi everyone


Hopefully during my two weeks leave I will be starting the hull fitting out with the prop shafts and rudder posts, etc.
However whilst I was looking through some old threads, with links to Mikasa, I wondered why the ships cowl vents on most Victorian era ships were painted red internally. Was there any benefits of being painted red or was it just that it looked good?
Just wondered... :}
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2013, 02:01:59 PM »

Whilst not a Majestic class pre-dreadnought my Canopus (1/96 scale) may be of interest. She is steam powered (Cheddar models Puffin unit) and as you can see from the link has guns that fire!
 
I would suggest you build her in the Victorian colour scheme as it looks really good for models of this type.
 
As suggested elsewhere in this thread, maybe we should all try to meet up one day and have a pre-dreadnought fleet day!
 
Good luck
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
 
http://wmunderway.8m.com/gallery29/gallery29.htm
 
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tonyH

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2013, 04:35:35 PM »

Hi Geoff,
 
Thanks for showing us the Canopus in all her glory!
 
Have you gone off scale with the running gear atall? The reason I ask is that I'm drawing up a similar installation with about the same displacement in a similar 1880's 'battleship' hull so I'd need similar performance, pressure, revs etc. assuming similar 40mm' ish props. Even the original power at about 14,000shp is similar.
 
Any thought would be appreciated :}
 
Thanks
 
Tony
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2013, 04:58:48 PM »

Tony,
 
Not really nearly all was to scale. The propellors were at least 40mm and four blade so rather larger than original but I found that the larger props gave better speed and greater economy. Steam engines only have so many "bites" of steam to work with and they like low rotational speed with big props.
 
I used a single "Puffin" engine geared one to one to two contra-rotating props and I get 25/30mins duration and near perfect scale speed. The boiler is a Cheddar models Puffin mk 1. If you can get a mk 2 it has about 40% more water capacity so you will get a longer duration. There is no differenec in size/weight just the flume goes in one end and out the top the other rather than a reverse flow such the funnel is the same end as the burner in the mk 1.
 
Operating pressure is about 25/30 psi with the safety valve set to 45 psi.
 
On Canopus I had to open up the main deck 6" gun ports to get sufficient air into the hull. A better way would be to use a small computer fan but basically all the ventilators work as you need a lot of fresh air for reliability.
 
Canopus weighs in at 35 pounds and is 52" long and about 10" wide if I remember. She still sails occassionaly at my home water in Southend.
 
An earlier post asked about the colour inside the vents. I'm not aware of any reason other than asthetics. If looking at the Mikasa site the vents have venetian blinds accross but this is only to keep the rain out of the museum ship. In practice no such blinds were ever fitted in any navy.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
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tonyH

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2013, 05:54:43 PM »


The propellors were at least 40mm and four blade so rather larger than original

Thanks Geoff,
 
Project J will be 48" x 10" with a displacement of about 29lbs so not that far away but it's the prop size and the pressure that I'm concerned about. The design speed was the same as Canopus so I may have to employ similar 'adjustments' ;)
 
Having used steam on a previous, slightly smaller, vessel with a similar hull shape and with scale props (Size and pitch), it was hard to keep the speed up a lot of the time, hence my question.
 
Thanks for your help and I look forward to meeting as and when the regatta happens, as long as foreign navies are not banned!
 
Regards
 
Tony
 
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 06:06:32 PM »

Tony,
 
Foreign navies not banned as we need something to shoot at!!  :-)
 
If in doubt make sure you have room for larger props. I seem to recall with Canopus 50mm 4 blade were too big and were counter-productive.
 
Good luck with your project.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
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tonyH

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2013, 08:07:07 PM »

Merci mon brave %)
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2013, 01:12:55 PM »

Tony,
 
I just checked the prop diameter on Canopus they are 4 blade 55mm so larger than I remembered.
 
Cheers
 
Geoff
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tonyH

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2013, 06:55:21 PM »

Thanks Geoff, I may have to 'fiddle' the shaft angle to suit. :-))
 
Regards
 
Tony
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2013, 08:19:52 PM »

Seems that Mayhemers are mind readers, the prop size was my next question! ;)
Thanks Geoff for answering my question about cowl vent colours, sometimes there is a practicable reason why the Navy did what they did with ship fittings but like you say it's probably aesthetics.
It certainly looks good for a Victorian fleet review in the future, even if we have a few ships under different colours  :-)) .
Regards


Nick
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Nick B

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victorian

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 10:52:09 AM »

Regarding vent colours, I don't have any definitive information. Considering these were the last ships built to fight the French, it's possible that the effect of a set of glaring red eyes looming over the horizon might have been a consideration! I don't think I've seen a contemporary builder's model that doesn't have the cowls red on the inside, allthough the outside is often left burnished. You can also see red interiors on some contemporary postcards
 
Another factor is the crucifix shaped grille that's supplied in the Hannibal kit. Most builders models omit these, although Cressy does have them. They are difficult/impossible to see in contemporary photographs and I omitted them in Mars. However, I recall a wreck diving show on TV about Majestic and lo and behold there was a cowl with the cruciform grating!
 
Here's Cressy (In the Ships of the Sea Museum, Savannah, Georgia)
 
 
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2013, 01:32:53 PM »

Okay, just in case anybody was wondering what the purpose of the crucifom grill was, and the funnel grills. The idea was to place canvas covers over them to restrict the draft when drawing boilers/cleaning out ash etc. The grills just supported the canvas covers.
 
Geoff
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victorian

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2013, 04:27:13 PM »

Thanks for that explanation Geoff and indeed they are clearly visible in this picture of Hannibal.
 
 
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2013, 03:44:43 PM »

Hi everyone


Thanks to you all for the extra information about cowl vents, etc.


Well, now I'm on leave for two weeks I have a chance to start to build the HMS Prince George, I managed to find an original photograph of her from 1898 showing her in the original Victorian colours.


Phase 1: The building stand








I built the stand from 20mm soft pine using the templates in the instructions, note to anyone building the kit after me that the stern template will require some adjustment to match the shape of the hull perfectly, but we are all modellers so we should be able to modify as we go along! I used PVA wood glue and screws to make the stand and covered it with some sticky backed foam to prevent the hull being scratched.


Tonight or tomorrow I will file the excess GRP off the hull and glue the hull beams into position.


I will have to modify the torpedo net shelf to fit just below the deck like the original Majestic, the kit is closer to Mars or Hannibal but as Victorian pointed out that each vessel was different in layout, its all down to research to find which layout was fitted to what ship. If anything it will be a little easier than the Hannibal or Mars fit because of the proximity of the shelf to the deck, I will have to scratch build the torpedo net arms/derricks because the ones in the kit will be too short.
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victorian

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2013, 10:23:02 AM »

Hi. There are quite a few articles on t'internet and these might be helpful:
 
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/albion.htm
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/nets.htm
 
These shelves are going to be very vulnerable to handling damage. In Niobe I keyed the net shelves strongly into the hull by leaving tabs on the shelf that engage with slots in the hull, sealing with runs of thick cyano and reinforcing the back with car filler. I don't know how that will work out with the upper deck shelves. (These adhesives will stick to both plasticard and fibreglass).
 
I've used the same technique for the bilge keels.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2013, 08:07:55 PM »

Hi Victorian


Thanks for the links to torpedo nets, I thought I was going a bit nuts because I have only found one picture of Prince George with the torpedo net shelf on the upper deck but after some careful reading I remembered that in 1903-5 all Majestics had their shelfs moved from the upper deck to the main deck so confusion averted!


In the two pictures below show the part required to create the running gear for the model. The prop shafts are the standard 4mm dia stainless steel with a brass outer shaft. The props are not the finished item for the working model, as Ron said to me they are there for testing and fitment of shafts only.








The next picture shows the holes to be drilled and filed out to fit the running gear, the two prop shaft exits, the A-frame brackets and the single hole for the rudder post.





The next pictures show the port and starboard A-frame brackets in situ.








The next picture shows the prop shafts sitting in their holes tacked in place with a spot of superglue.





The two items brought together in harmony, tacked together once again with superglue (temporary)





The proposed power plants- two 12v car heater motors from a VW Polo.





The props and shafts in place to ensure that everything lines up- luckily it did!








The forward and quarter decks temporary fitted in place with the battery/superstructure sitting on top.











Hopefull the decks and motors will be fitted soon... :-))
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Nick B

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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2013, 11:13:59 PM »

Nick.......in the eleventh image below we see a dimple cap on axis of the end plate on the 12 volt electric motor
This usually suggests a single ball [bearing] in the dimple which acts as a thrust bearing due to the EMF produced under load ...ie., the electric motors are designed for a preferential direction of rotation only
From memory you have used 12 volt car ventilation motors before in previous vessels....but have you trialed twin motors with one counter rotating?
Many years ago I used a similar setup & the 12 volt motor running backwards constantly chattered as the EMF was dragging the armature off the thrust ball.......the same motor provided greatly fluctuating current draw.....
As I have acknowledged.....electricity is a black art for me & I have little real knowledge...suffice to say this EMF is used in reverse as the principal for Demag cronical rotor brake motors in industrial applications ....Derek

 
 
 
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2013, 03:49:31 PM »

Nick.......in the eleventh image below we see a dimple cap on axis of the end plate on the 12 volt electric motor
This usually suggests a single ball [bearing] in the dimple which acts as a thrust bearing due to the EMF produced under load ...ie., the electric motors are designed for a preferential direction of rotation only
From memory you have used 12 volt car ventilation motors before in previous vessels....but have you trialed twin motors with one counter rotating?
Many years ago I used a similar setup & the 12 volt motor running backwards constantly chattered as the EMF was dragging the armature off the thrust ball.......the same motor provided greatly fluctuating current draw.....
As I have acknowledged.....electricity is a black art for me & I have little real knowledge...suffice to say this EMF is used in reverse as the principal for Demag cronical rotor brake motors in industrial applications ....Derek



Hi Derek


When we started to use car heater motors many moons ago, my Dad being a rather inquisitive kind of chap noticed on the first motor we fetched out of a Vauxhall Cavalier had two + labels on the terminals. He connected them up and like you say the motor turns in both directions. We have used this method on several models to have either in-turning or out turning props, and works brilliantly. We were actually unaware that what the dimple cap on the axis of the end plate meant- now we know, many thanks for clearing that up, we just knew that it worked!  :-))
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Nick B

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Circlip

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2013, 03:56:29 PM »

But doesn't the thrust from the prop load the shaft?
 
   Regards   Ian.
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Circlip

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2013, 04:11:02 PM »

Many moons ago, I needed two heater motors to drive a pair of "Kenlowe" fan blades, - cooling a radiator fastened to a Ford Ten side valve engine. The two I got, both "Smiths", looked exactly the same but rotated in opposite directions when fastened to a battery. Reversing the connections didn't alter it but on removing the end bell of both, the internal wiring connections showed a difference. by altering the "Wrong" one to the same as the "Right" one, both rotated in the correct direction and could drop the temperature by 20deg. in about a mile. Providing the thrust is through the motor to the "Blind" endcap, it shouldn't make any difference.
 
     Regards   Ian.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2013, 04:51:47 PM »

But doesn't the thrust from the prop load the shaft?
 
   Regards   Ian.


Hi Ian


I've just spoken to my Dad about this, he said that we use a thrust washer fitted between the coupling and the prop shaft to prevent this happening.
Regards


Nick
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Circlip

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2013, 05:01:20 PM »

?  Surley (don't call me Shirley) between the prop and the proptube?
 
    Regards  Ian.
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2013, 05:04:36 PM »

?  Surley (don't call me Shirley) between the prop and the proptube?
 
    Regards  Ian.


Yes, that's what I meant to say, not the coupling!  :embarrassed:


Regards


Nick
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