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Author Topic: Fracking ?!  (Read 3506 times)

Bowwave

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2013, 01:53:23 PM »

I must confess to being light on  what is involved in the whole process . I prefer  balanced analysis  to rhetoric   but this article is well worth a read  it is balanced and  pulls no punches but  like all processes   there are risks and advantages ,  http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/343202/description/The_Facts_Behind_the_Frack
Bowwave
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gingyer

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2013, 02:14:53 PM »

do not know what is worse fracking or wind turbines..


Well I know which one costs us a fortune even if they are not working  >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
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Bryan Young

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 03:04:15 PM »

Just a simple question.
When digging coal the thickness of the seams is pretty well known....as is the depth they'll be found at. That is, to about 3000ft.
Similarly with oil fields (except that men don't go down and dig it out), but don't they tend to be deeper than coal seams? After all, the oil fields used to be coal seams at one time.
The question....if these gas bearing strata are at or deeper underground than oil fields, is there any way their actual depth of strata can be measured? After all, if the layer is only a few feet deep and over a mile underground, I for one can't imagine much, if any, surface disturbance. BY.
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Circlip

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 03:15:54 PM »

Don't forget that Devon and Cornwall have their own problems associated with Radon.
 
    Don't worry lads, some Doylen in the Lords stated that "There's plenty of desolate landscape in North Yorkshire"  for the frakkers.   %)
 
 
   Regards   Ian.
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Perkasaman2

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 04:57:59 PM »

If I recall correctly the Coal Boards and individual house insurance covered the liabilities of building damage due to subsidence. Legal searches were and are routinely required of Coal Board records when properties were/are bought/sold in localities where underground work was known to have been carried out. The northeast of England as well as other areas are honeycombed by such workings but life goes on. As far as I can tell fracking does not involve removing strata underground as in the case of mining. Cracks in buildings can be caused by a very large number of factors. Hence the modern practice of building house and flats on concrete rafts or bases. I think that there is a lot of scare mongering in evidence and some reactions border on near hysteria. 
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Netleyned

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2013, 05:22:25 PM »

Don't forget that Devon and Cornwall have their own problems associated with Radon.
 
    Don't worry lads, some Doylen in the Lords stated that "There's plenty of desolate landscape in North Yorkshire"  for the frakkers.   %)
 
 
   Regards   Ian.

Yeah
I were in the Frackers Arms in Goathland last weekend  %%

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sparkey

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2013, 06:37:28 PM »

 :-)) Just remember when there is a lot of money to be made common sense goes out the window,I don't trust the lot of them.Ray. :-)) :-)) :-))
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Netleyned

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2013, 06:46:49 PM »

The powers that be have a knee jerk reaction
to the Euro rats.
Put Solar Cells on your roof. Yeah what's happened to that?
Wind Farms Shall we or shan't we?
Fracking Now that's a good idea  for now.
They have a rethink, pull the funding and carry on
propping up the Ferrari sales to Bongo Bongo Land.

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malcolmfrary

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2013, 10:12:24 PM »

I have a fair idea what happened to the PV solar cells - When I had a visit and got a look at the spreadsheet that the rep hoped to amaze me with, the figures just didn't add up even before the government tightened its fist.  Basically, it showed the income from the system starting a year early, which skewed the figures enormously.  Probably basically over-optimistic, as well. Technology will move on with the things, reducing costs of the units and installation, and no doubt their efficiency, but it hasn't happened yet. 
With fracking, if it was a case that the shale beds were beneath the stockbroker belt, and the people who were going to take the benefit were actually taking the physical risk and were happy to do so, no problem.  If the country actually benefits, win.  If the entire crowd vanishes down a hole in the world or chokes on foul water, no great loss, almost a win.  And that Doylen in the Lords didn't know the difference between the North West and North East.  He said it was a slip of the tongue, but I suspect that the only slip was revealing that the group who order our lives collectively couldn't find their own backsides without a road map and a mirror.  Somebody else's, maybe, but not their own.
A mine has a finite amount of removed void, and is very specifically known for any area where it exists.  Unexpected subsidence still happens. 
With fracking, nobody has a clue what size and shape hole in the underworld is going to be created.  With mines, there is an established framework to deal with problems.  No such thing with fracking, but there is every likelihood that there will be a heck of a lot of denial paths for the commercial interests to enable them to avoid paying for the damage that they will have created.  As long as the money people are not touched, they will not give a hoot about the ruination of the lives of people at the bottom of the pile.
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Neil

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2013, 10:55:15 PM »

WELL SAID MALCOLM, WELL SAID :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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derekwarner

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2013, 11:11:12 PM »

 :o ..I think Malcolm should be nominated for a miniature literary Pulitzer Prize O0 for that short but succinct exposť .......
I particularly like the bit.....   "somebody else's, maybe"....  :embarrassed: ........................Derek
 
PS...just thinking...if we have a Master Class build folder here on Mayhem......could the Moderators not consider a Master exposť folder with the award being the Mayhem Wurlitzer Prize.....
 
Tug Kenny would certainly be familiar with the Wurlitzer  {-) {-)
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Peter Fitness

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2013, 12:10:32 AM »

Peter.......the video of the woman lighting her kitchen sink tap water was I believe also from an ABC program some 12 months ago...I searched, but could not find it
To my mind, the ABC 4 Corners episode portrayed a balanced view of the situation....as Aunty always does....... O0  .....Derek


Derek, the good old ABC has a history of presenting biased views on controversial news stories in recent times, and have been caught out twisting, or even falsifying the facts to suit their needs.


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Circlip

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2013, 11:12:14 AM »

And just to add fuel to the fire (Arrrrrrrrr) The frackin companies can't guarantee to employ UK workers  %)
 
 
    Regards  Ian.
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Bowwave

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2013, 11:17:56 AM »

 
Strangely fracking becomes a controversial issue yet shale gas extraction has been around for many years. The extraction of coal has been the course of many deaths directly or indirectly and remains a big problem in areas that suffer from subsidence issues through old deep level mines plus so called unacceptable levels of CO2 yet we still use coal   . Oil extraction and transport is one of the single biggest issues for the environment asks BP.  Renewables especially  on shore wind farms  is a  growing  issue for environmental   pollution  and   damage to wildlife especially  bird   migration  patterns which over a period of time   may  have a  serious  impact on agriculture. Hydro generation alters water courses and has an   impact on fishing  and  land  erosion.  Nuclear has the potential to destroy the environment completely yet we need to replace our existing stations.  All of our power generation has risks and we except those risks so we can heat our houses, drive our cars and take part in this very discussion.  Personally  IF the science  is right and the method  of extraction  carried out  in accordance with the science  then fracking   should pose no more of a risk  than any other form of energy production  .
Bowwave
 
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Liverbudgie

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2013, 07:10:20 PM »

Someone care to remind me of the name of the water pumping station that exploded in the Ribble valley area some years ago, killing several people and seriously injuring others from a party of visitors to the station. The cause was, oh yes, a build up of methane!
LB
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Neil

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2013, 10:35:50 PM »

Abbeystead
 
sadly one of our member's Uncle was killed in the explosion.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbeystead_disaster
 
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Circlip

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2013, 06:40:04 AM »

Quote
The cause was, oh yes, a build up of methane!
LB

   Which seeped into pipework, -  from mine workings.
 
  Regards  Ian.
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pettyofficernick

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2013, 04:48:32 PM »

As far as I can see, the the disadvantages of fracking have been grossly over exagerated by the fluffy bunny brigade, The tremours in the Fylde aere, were at 2M, which is more than usual, typically, they will be iM or less. When the coal industry was in full swing much larger tremours were felt in Lancashire and yorkshire than will be ever produced by fracking. I for one, want to be able to keep warm in years to come, regardless of cost, we need energy security here in the UK, and with the wat things are going in the Middle East at the moment, I think the sooner we have energy security and independence the better.
Inof re fracking fro  Birtish Geological Survey website...http://earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquake_hazard_shale_gas.html
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2013, 08:01:39 AM »

Quote from the link - "Magnitudes of the earthquakes during hydraulic fracture stimulation in reservoirs such as the Barnett Shale are typically less than 1 ML. This suggests that the earthquake activity observed at Preese Hall is rather unusual." 
[/size]So, the fact that test fracks produce bigger quakes than expected, what was expected was larger than an "allowable maximum", and production fracking must, by its nature, be more active, is not a worry?
[/size]The production companies do not have a good environmental reputation without very solid regulation in place, and there isn't any at the moment.  The powers that be, sitting in comfort well away from the everyday reality of most of us, will be telling the local planning authorities what to approve, but these authorities will, at the moment, have no power to check on what is actually happening until well after the event, and even then, the burden of proof is no longer with the company, but with the injured parties. 
[/size]Quite apart from inducing tremors, there is the bigger question of the toxic slurry which is going to be produced.  Worldwide, there are plenty of recorded instances of groundwater being polluted and rendered unfit for irrigation of crops or the use of livestock.  Contrary to common belief, our food does not originate on supermarket shelves, it comes from crops and livestock.  Anybody bought any Knott End cockles lately?  Of course not, those beds were poisoned by outflow from the Hillhouse PVC plant many years ago, and it's likely to be another 20 years before the mercury works its way out of that bit of the ecosystem.  The answer to that was to truck the contaminated slurry over to the salt mines and pumpit back down there, forming a closed cycle.  If the same were to happen with fracking slurry, there is doubt that, if the trucks were to run on methane, there would be any left over for sale.
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pettyofficernick

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2013, 08:08:16 AM »

Typeface too small to read, how does one make it bigger?
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derekwarner

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2013, 08:12:42 AM »

Just enlarge it...... O0 this is the first line.........Derek
 
Magnitudes of the earthquakes during hydraulic fracture stimulation in reservoirs such as the Barnett Shale are typically less than 1 ML. This suggests that the earthquake activity observed at Preese Hall is rather unusual."
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pettyofficernick

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2013, 08:17:16 AM »

Thanks Derek, How did you do that, I had to copy and paste it to word....
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derekwarner

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2013, 10:45:56 AM »

Here is the last line Nick.........enlarged through this WEB site text options........not sure about the intermediate lines........ :D the actual text is from Malcolm............etc........Derek
 
Quite apart from inducing tremors, there is the bigger question of the toxic slurry which is going to be produced.  Worldwide, there are plenty of recorded instances of groundwater being polluted and rendered unfit for irrigation of crops or the use of livestock.  Contrary to common belief, our food does not originate on supermarket shelves, it comes from crops and livestock.  Anybody bought any Knott End cockles lately?  Of course not, those beds were poisoned by outflow from the Hillhouse PVC plant many years ago, and it's likely to be another 20 years before the mercury works its way out of that bit of the ecosystem.  The answer to that was to truck the contaminated slurry over to the salt mines and pumpit back down there, forming a closed cycle.  If the same were to happen with fracking slurry, there is doubt that, if the trucks were to run on methane, there would be any left over for sale.
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pettyofficernick

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2013, 03:54:29 PM »

Why thank you Derek, I am, however, not blind, 14point would have been fine......



Size has now been reduced

Ken
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Fracking ?!
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2013, 06:12:17 PM »

Sorry about that - it looked OK before I left it and pressed enter.  There has been a few occasions lately where spurious resizes have crept in, usually a small size difference, this time to the smallest legally possible.  Redone the right size.
Quote from the link - "Magnitudes of the earthquakes during hydraulic fracture stimulation in reservoirs such as the Barnett Shale are typically less than 1 ML. This suggests that the earthquake activity observed at Preese Hall is rather unusual." 
So, the fact that test fracks produce bigger quakes than expected, what was expected was larger than an "allowable maximum", and production fracking must, by its nature, be more active, is not a worry?
The production companies do not have a good environmental reputation without very solid regulation in place, and there isn't any at the moment.  The powers that be, sitting in comfort well away from the everyday reality of most of us, will be telling the local planning authorities what to approve, but these authorities will, at the moment, have no power to check on what is actually happening until well after the event, and even then, the burden of proof is no longer with the company, but with the injured parties. 
Quite apart from inducing tremors, there is the bigger question of the toxic slurry which is going to be produced.  Worldwide, there are plenty of recorded instances of groundwater being polluted and rendered unfit for irrigation of crops or the use of livestock.  Contrary to common belief, our food does not originate on supermarket shelves, it comes from crops and livestock.  Anybody bought any Knott End cockles lately?  Of course not, those beds were poisoned by outflow from the Hillhouse PVC plant many years ago, and it's likely to be another 20 years before the mercury works its way out of that bit of the ecosystem.  The answer to that was to truck the contaminated slurry over to the salt mines and pump it back down there, forming a closed cycle.  If the same were to happen with fracking slurry, there is doubt that, if the trucks were to run on methane, there would be any left over for sale.
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