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Author Topic: Vosper RTTL  (Read 19478 times)

Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2013, 10:25:00 pm »

Cheers Jan, I will have to see how well I can get the new one to line up, I doubt the motor will be powerful enough to allow it to plane anyway!

Bob, thanks, I'm going to take my time with this bit (albeit not 6 years again!). Ask and ye shall recieve:


This is how the propshaft "hung" when I cut it off, which probably shows how bent it must have been!





And looking from the stern towards the bow, not the best photo as its that fine its hard to capture, you can sort of see the hole (the white blob) where the prop enters is slightly off the center line, I think this is giving me some of the left to right alignment grief:





Thats all for now, won't be much progress this weekend as I'm away camping!


Cheers,
Steven



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rem2007

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2013, 06:20:53 am »

Hi Steve,

The skeg piece gives the proper angle for your prop shaft. You could cut a new piece as per the instructions when aligning your new shaft. File out the hole where the shaft enters the hull and where it enters the motor mount tray, once all is temporarily fitted it can then be epoxied in. By taping around the propshaft prior to applying the epoxy should prevent overflow and give a smoother finish.
Hopefully this helps.
Robert 
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bubbletop409

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2013, 12:50:21 am »

Cheers Jan, I will have to see how well I can get the new one to line up, I doubt the motor will be powerful enough to allow it to plane anyway!

Bob, thanks, I'm going to take my time with this bit (albeit not 6 years again!). Ask and ye shall recieve:


This is how the propshaft "hung" when I cut it off, which probably shows how bent it must have been!





And looking from the stern towards the bow, not the best photo as its that fine its hard to capture, you can sort of see the hole (the white blob) where the prop enters is slightly off the center line, I think this is giving me some of the left to right alignment grief:





Thats all for now, won't be much progress this weekend as I'm away camping!


Cheers,
Steven
StevenT
From the above picture I would suggest that not only you remount the prop shaft at a shallower angle, but that you also give some consideration to relocating the prop farther to the rear of the boat. Not sure how you decided on the current location, bit it appears to me too far forward. Also when building a new boat, I locate the prop shaft first, including a shallow angle and then line the motors up with the shafts. The closer you are able to line the motors with the shafts, the less parasitic drag you will have and also less vibration.

Larry
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2013, 07:42:13 pm »

Hi Larry, The prop is in the correct place according to the drawings, besides I don't think it would go any further back due to the limitations of the fixed motor mount.


In the news, I have finally got round to filing the two holes out, so I can now get the propshaft to line up with the motor properly!
Going to either fix it in place tonight or the weekend now.
Any ideas whats the best glue to use? and how to make sure it stays aligned whilst the glue dries? I was thinking of using a fast drying superglue to hold it then epoxy it into place after?
Cheers
Steven
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pompebled

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2013, 08:20:25 pm »

I was thinking of using a fast drying superglue to hold it then epoxy it into place after?
Steven
Hi Steven,

That should do it.
Add glasscloth to the epoxy if required on the slot in the hull.

Regards, Jan.
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2013, 08:54:20 pm »

Cheers Jan.
Just been looking at it again, and I've hit another (yes, another...) problem.
Basically, if i let the propshaft "hang" so that the coupling is straight, the shaft is no where near the skeg (which is the right size, in the right place according to the drawings). If I hold the shaft up to the skeg, the coupling gets a kink in it. Hope these pictures explain that better;




And with the shaft held against the skeg:




Any ideas guys? I'm thinking about making the skeg bigger so the shaft sits true with the motor, don't know if this causes any more problems, I can't see why it would?
Cheers,
Steven
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rem2007

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2013, 07:22:45 am »

hey steve,

just make that hole in the tray abit bigger, and then when everything is line up true, epoxy it all in.

robert
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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2013, 10:58:33 am »


The Skeg looks a bit  'weedy'.  Have you thought about making it a bit deeper, so as to come down to the prop tube  ?

regards

ken


 
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lakesidebob

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2013, 06:08:48 pm »

Isn't this where you started off?The shaft has to line up exactly with the motor spindle,the rubber will spin off like that....better to have a coupling.All the best with it.Bob.
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2013, 07:22:21 pm »

Right, made up a bigger skeg today, new propshaft is fitted, lines up a lot better with the motor now! The angle of the skeg and shaft has increased, but I'm not concerned about this now it all lines up nicely!
Will put a photo on tomorrow!
Cheers for the tips again guys, feel like I'm getting somewhere with this now  :D
Steven.
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bubbletop409

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2013, 09:46:33 pm »

Keep in mind that with a prop shaft angle such as you presently have that boat will have a difficult time getting up on plane. The propeller is pushing the boat directly up the shaft, at the exaggerated  angle you are presently running, the prop will be trying to push up on the hull as much as it is pushing forward. Optimum shaft angle is 10 degrees or LESS in relation to the keel, your present setup looks to have 20 or more degrees.
Just because you located the prop according to the instructions does not mean it is at the optimum angle or location. The guy who drew the plans may have had to make concessions in motor location and shaft angle due to size and/or shape of the hull and available space.
I still maintain for the best performance of your boat the prop should be moved rearward and the angle decreased to below 10 degrees. Get the shaft in the proper location, then align the motor to it.
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2013, 11:02:03 pm »

Hi Bubbletop, To be honest I'm not too bothered if the hull doesn't come up onto the plane. I think what I'm going to do, seeing as though I've just refixed the shaft in place with the greater angle, I'll see how it goes when I get it on the water. If I feel it's not good enough then I'll strip it back down and see what I can do. I don't really want to strip it all down again now, to find out I'm not going to be able to get it right again!
Steven







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lakesidebob

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2013, 11:37:24 pm »

Wouldn't it be better to get it right now given the advice,rather than be disappointed with the performance given they are fast-ish boats and then have to strip it all down again?Bob.
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John W E

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2013, 09:58:14 am »

hi ya there
May I make a suggestion; carry on the way you are going; fit the propshaft the best you can at the angle you can and put the model in the water and enjoy the model.  Keep one thing in mind, this is a semi scale model; and it will be a learning curve for you.   It wont have any spectacular performance - no matter what you do with it's current prop shaft and motor alignment - the only way you would do that is if you want to spend some mega bucks and go brushless with lipo batteries.  Does the model warrant this expense?  If you like these type of models there are plenty true to scale kits out there - and plans - which you could build and have the correct prop shafts at the correct angles and get far better performance.   I have built a number of air sea rescue craft and they are all documented on this forum so if you are looking for something else to do have a look at some of the postings on the forum here.
aye, John
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2013, 08:16:26 pm »

Cheers John, Already thinking of doing something else but not sure yet, I was thinking the deans marines crash tender but need to look into it more!

Had the boat in the bathtub earlier this evening, and put it this way, the angle of the prop is staying as it is! In the relatively short length of the bath tub, it's just as fast as any of the larger "toy" rc speed boats I had as a kid, which is fast enough for me! Obviously it didn't really have chance to get to full speed, but still!
I have noticed one thing, theres a very, very small amount of water came up the propshaft as I put the boat in reverse, is there any particular reason for this or is it just one of those things?
Cheers

Steven.
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rem2007

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2013, 10:56:37 pm »

...the provided shaft doesnt have any bearings, so will allow some water ingress, the solution, don't go in reverse, its meant to go scale speed, forward, which looks good. Get it sorted and out to the pond and you'll have loads of fun if you don't go in reverse {-) .

Robert
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2013, 01:57:43 pm »

Hi Guys,
Over the past week I have bought a universal coupling and a Graupner speed 400 motor for this boat.
So today I took it for it's inaugural sailing.
Firstly, it didn't sink, which is always a good start!
Secondly, it planed rather nicely and the speed was more than acceptable until the battery started dropping off after about 1/12 hours of running! The motor did get rather hot, but after I found out what it was capable of I wasn't giving it an easy time either!
My friend who came to the lake with me reckons I should stick a brushless motor in which would solve the hot motor issue.
But anyway, heres a few pics and a half-hearted attempt at a video, The sun was in the wrong place aswell which didn't help with the camera!



















http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLrYcEuAx1M


Cheers,
Steven

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lakesidebob

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2013, 06:20:54 pm »

Well done Steve,that looks a treat after all your angst recently,great lake too.Bob.
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rem2007

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2013, 08:34:14 pm »

nice steve, very nice. now lesson learnt, and so many kits to buy eh! have fun...that is a big lake :-))
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2013, 08:43:51 pm »

Cheers guys  :-))  I am very pleased with its performance. Think I have found a suitable brushless setup for it aswell now, this motor, which is the same size roughly as my current brushed:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15187__S2838_2800_Brushless_Inrunner_2800kv_.html


and a Speed controller:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__29430__HobbyKing_30A_Boat_ESC_3A_UBEC_UK_Warehouse_.html


I think these should be suitable?



As for the lake, It's where Darlington Model boat club sail. Thinking of joining soon. It's an old reservoir and the water is crystal clear!
Cheers!
Steven
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pompebled

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2013, 10:30:13 pm »

Hi Steven,

No at both items...

Assuming your boat runs on 7,2V, a 2800KV motor would give you 18.000 rpm under load, which would come close to strapping a blender under the hull, lots of foam and no forward speed to speak of.

You'd say: well I'll run half throttle...

That would mean overheating both motor and ESC as they don't respond well to continously running partial throttle.

Talking about overheating; the motor will need watercooling, which would require another motormount, without a longer propshaft you might have problems getting the proper allignment.

An 30A ESC for a 300W motor on 7,2V is too low (300 : 7,2 = 40A peak).

I'm going to watch the F1 qually now, I'll post some suggestions later.

Regards, Jan.
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2013, 11:35:33 pm »

Hi Jan, would it not be that the 300W is produced when the motor is running at full voltage of 14.8v, so when it's running on 7.2v, it should in theory only be using around 150W, which would mean it would only be around 20A peak on 7.2v?
Cheers,
Steven
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pompebled

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2013, 10:00:32 am »

Hi Steven,

Wattage is V x A, if you lower the Voltage, the Amps go up under load.

As an example of how a continuous load heats things up:
The testruns with my MAS powered by a 1000W 800KV outrunner were made without watercooling, running on 14,8V, this meant a peak current of over 60A, so I used a 150A ESC.
I walked next to the boat along the canal, so the speed was a brisk walking pace, with the occasional burst of full throttle, but 90% of the runtime was at partial throttle.

After over an hour (it's a long canal), the boat stopped.
When it has floated back to me the motor was boiling hot as was the ESC, both items smelled slightly 'electric', I burnt my fingers on the motormount, so I didn't try to touch the motor...
Fortunately the ESC had shut down thermally, otherwise it would have burnt up.

Granted, the weather was warm, the unfinished hull (no deck yet) was exposed to direct sunlight and the runtime is rather extreme, compared to pottering around on the pond, but that's how I use my boats, as our town has a lot of canals, but no suitable model pond.

So, even with an ESC with an headroom of 100% compared to the max motorcurrent, it shut down eventually.

After watercooling was installed, both motor and ESC never exceeded 45°C, currently the boat runs on a watercooled 100A ESC and it stays cool.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming you got this motor for your boat: http://www.graupner.de/en/products/1794/product.aspx I think I know why the motor got hot.
In the video the motor didn't sound like it was revving at 15000 rpm, half that is more likely, meaning you're bogging down the motor severely.
It'll still do it's best to get up to the rpm dictated by the Voltage applied and will draw quite a lot of current, heating things up.
As no brushtab or cancooling was installed, the heat build up has nowhere to go.

Another point (literally) is breaking in a brushed motor; new brushes have just two tiny contactpoints to the commutor.
When you apply full throttle, all current has to flow through these minute points, the brushes will arch badly and possible burn into the copper of the commutor, damaging it for the rest of its working life.
The arching also causes a lot of heat.

A new brushed motor should be broken in, running submerged in a glass of water, on an as low Voltage as possible (1,5 - 3V) to avoid arching.
When the water starts to get dark, check if the brushes have assumed the curve of the commutor, if so, dry out the motor (compressed air work well) in a warm place, put a tiny(!) drop of oil on the bushings and you're good to go.

Brushless thoughts:
For an underwater prop, rule of thumb is about 10.000 rpm under load.
Running on 7,2V, the math is simple and would mean a motor of about 1400 - 1500KV.

In-runners with such a low KV are often a Ø36 mm size, so fitting that into your boat would mean major surgery.
Also the low end performance of an in-runner is often non existant and the motor will burst into life at one third throttle, making crawling along an illusion.

As most outrunners have more poles, the low end response is much smoother (albeit brushed motors still do a better job in direct drive).

As cooling an outrunner has it's limits, it's wise to choose a bigger motor to have more headroom.

Something like this would work nicely, make sure it'll fit and include space for a watercooled motormount (bought, or DIY):
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16234__NTM_Prop_Drive_Series_35_30A_1400kv_560w.html

Smaller and still plenty of power:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__25078__NTM_Prop_Drive_28_36_1400KV_560W.html

To control it, a car ESC gives you a smoother low end than a boat ESC, something like this:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17232__Hobby_King_60A_Sensored_Sensorless_Car_ESC_1_10_1_12_.html

The fan cooled heatsink isn't very effective in a closed hull, but taking off the fan and watercooling the ESC by making a watercooler, fitting on the same boltpattern as the heatsink is relatively easy to do.

If you don't want to go that route, Hobbyking also has the watercooled version available, but I have no experience with these (yet) so I can't say how well the low end response will be:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__28223__HobbyKing_90A_Boat_ESC_4A_SBEC.html

Regards, Jan.
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Steven.T

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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2013, 10:48:07 am »

Right, thanks for that Jan, certainly something else to get my head round this brushless stuff!

Would a brushless that only does 10,000rpm be enough to bring my model up onto the plane? I believe the motor in the video should have been running at around the 15,000 rpm mark on the video, the battery was fully charged (7.2v, the same as the motor rating) and the throttle was fully open?


Also, I don't want to have to hack away the motor mount, I'm not confident enough that if I take it out (major surgery which is not reversible) I can make something suitable to go back in its place and space is tight in this model, so a bigger motor would make things rather awkward...
Watercooling would be tricky aswell, due to there being the internal tray, and again, limited room inside the model.
I think I may be best sticking with what I have got at the moment...?
Cheers,
Steven
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Re: Vosper RTTL
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2013, 11:18:31 am »

Would a brushless that only does 10,000rpm be enough to bring my model up onto the plane?
Hi Steven,

An  800KV outrunner powers my 110 cm MAS, running on 4S (14,8V), turning a Ø60 mm prop, at about 10.000 rpm under load.
Watch the video and see if this answers your question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-igDcvLySEM&feature=youtu.be

Do turn up the sound (as high as you can) to hear the running noises, as my cameraman/nephew has muted the sound too much.

Regards, Jan.
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