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[Daedalus62]

Hi all,

The plans for JIF2 I'm building, just calls for a piece of drilled 2mm(!!) thick aluminum, as a mast support (APOYO PALO)...

Surely this is newbie (dumb) doubt but, even knowing this is a small yacht (RG65), is just this support and the mast riggings enough to handle the wind force in the sails?...

Structurally wise, it doesn't make much sense to me... A tube (running deck to bottom) where the mast would slip inside, seems much better... But what do I know...

To the hardened yacht skippers out there... Is this method (like the plan) enough to support the mast?... Is this a common setup?... Thank you for your input...

Cheers

[JayDee]

Hello,

The Mast support is only to hold the bottom of the mast in position.
The 3 holes are to tune the boat when sailing.
The mast is held in place by the Rigging.
There should be a support from under the deck support down to the bottom of the Hull.
This will prevent the deck from bending.

This is a standard way of supporting a mast !.
My Schooner, Bluenose is 7 feet long, and has the same sort of fitting.

John. 

[Daedalus62]

Thank you for your detailed input, JayDee... Appreciated...    ... If it works in your 7 feet long, it will surely do in this 65cm...

I was just confused because I saw some boats (even as small as footy's) with the tube-from-deck-to-bottom-of-hull setup, and wondering if there was any significant difference between both methods... But, a noob is a noob is a noob...

Awesome boat, by the way...

Thank you.

Cheers

[JayDee]

Hello,

I have never liked the "tube in the boat" mast fitting.
If the rigging was to break or come very loose, ALL of the mast loads would be taken by the tube in the deck.
With a very heavy load this would either break the mast, OR, the mast would break the boat!!.

With the mast Deck stepped, if the same thing was to happen, it would be seen!, the boat could then be brought to shore in a safe manner.
Done that !!  got the T shirt !!.

John. 

[Daedalus62]

 

Makes sense... And, viewed by that perceptive, the "tube-in-the-boat" method seems better adapted to smaller vessels... Where, in case something goes wrong, the mast loads are proportionally smaller... Just rambling...

Cheers

[tigertiger]

Tube in the boat works where the mast is stepped into the keel. But this offers no adustment at all, the mast only has one possible postion.


With the mast stepped into the deck you can change the mast position and/or angle, especially useful if you change the sail plan (A, B, C rigs). The role of the plate is just to stop the mast from slip sliding away, across the deck, 2mm is enough. The mast is held in place by the tension supplied by the shrouds, the shrouds stop the mast from jumping out of the mast step plate.
The plate just prevents lateral thrust (movement),  A bit like placing your foot at the bottom of a ladder.

[Daedalus62]

Thank you for the explanation, tigertiger 

I gather that just (fine) tuning a rig is an art by itself... Got to catch up on my reading... At least for the basics, that is.

Cheers

[dreadnought72]

I agree with John and others here.

Though I see your PILAS (battery?) is a bit in the way of using a pillar. Why not shove in a knee between your liston 5x5 pino and that blue bulkhead thingmy? Or mamparo, as google translate would have me believe! 

Andy

[mrpenguin]

If you are using a deck stepped mast (as per the plan) you will need a backstay, shrouds each side and a jib halyard to support the mast. Not a problem. Mast foot position is easily adjusted fore and aft, this can be useful. My 1.8 metre A Class uses this method.
 
If you decide to go for a keel stepped mast, you may need to provide two or three tubes down to the keel to give you multiple mast positions. With a keel stepped mast you will likely only need a backstay and jib halyard to support the mast. The Dragon Force 65 uses this method; it also has a sliding arrangement for positioning the mast fore and aft (see www.dragonforce65.com for details)
 
 

[Daedalus62]

Thank you all for your inputs... Most helpful and enlightening.

Still getting around to all the nautical names/terms

Cheers

[david48]

As  Tigertiger says that is the norm to deck stepping the mast .There is a fixed support a piece off round tube under the deck to the keel this is the compression tube it transfers the load of the mast to the keel , to tune the main sail the mast has a bend put into it by the back stay and the shrouds . So this means that the back stay and all the standing rigging fixing points where the turn buckles will have to be secured will have to be built strong to handle the stress loads . Not sure what the rig set up is on a JIF2 is but I hope this helps on the deck stepping of a yacht mast
David

[tiaki]

I'd have to say deck stepping is not the norm. It's merely an alternative to tube mounting. Which way to go purely depends on your requirements and preference. In my experience the requirement to move the mast fore or aft is not required if you take the time and trouble to understand how to setup a yacht correctly. Mast tubes fitted properly can most certainly be sailed without rigging, to suggest other wise is ill informed, swing rigs wouldn't be used then! I have a collection of 16 yachts from RG65 to 1.5 meter twin mast ketches both scale sail and completion yachts which have a mixture of both methods of mast mounting.
The toughest part of this hobby for the newb is sifting through the half baked well intentioned statements and bias. For a newb the sensible approach is to follow the plans so you have a good chance of a yacht that sails halfway decent to start with. Then when you have discovered yachts can be fun and do sail well your learning curve and experience will lead you through the mine field of information available to you.
 I would get involved I a local club if possible, as the wealth of experience can be helpful in making the early decisions. Nothing beats the proof of seeing a yacht sailing in competition and how it sails with whatever fittings/ methods you're looking at.
Good luck
 

[mrpenguin]

I would get involved I a local club if possible, as the wealth of experience can be helpful in making the early decisions. Nothing beats the proof of seeing a yacht sailing in competition and how it sails with whatever fittings/ methods you're looking at.
Good luck

Agreed!!!!!

[Daedalus62]

A multitude of (all!!) useful information... Thank you, gentlemen.

Agree with you, tiaki... Tons of information to absorb and learn out there... To a newb (who still as to learn to sail!) it gets a bit confusing sometimes.

Which way to go?... Without previous knowledge/experience, my preferred option is to follow the plans... I understand that if you see they're are good and well thought out, as these JIF2 (http://www.velarc.net/plantas_eng.htm) seem (to me!) to be, the author chose this or that way of doing things for a reason.

In this case I was just trying to figure out what are (if any) the major differences (construction and performance wise) between deck stepping and keel stepping... Would it be better to build something as below illustration (as suggested by mrpenguin) or use the plan setup?...

Thanks to all your information, I think I got the picture... I'll build this one as per plan and (try to) learn to sail... Hopefully other builds will follow and I'll decide on a preferred setup... If any ...

And, of course, nothing replaces 1st person experience... Contact with the local skippers is under way.

Cheers 

[tiaki]

Good to hear you are making the right noises and taking some good steps. I see all to often newbs trying to run before they learn to sail. It usually ends up being frustrating and the end of sailing. If you have ever sailed the full size yachts then the headache is no longer having the seat of the pants feed back. If you haven't then just bear in mind others have been able to succeed so can you. The only down side to building your own yacht is it can be addictive when you succeed. I would with out doubt use the plan set up as drawn until you know better. The idea is to get something on the water that has at least the parentage to work, then the modifications will flow. I'm just finishing off the RG65 Viper with swing rig, after trying to stick to the plans. I have deviated in the weight by sculpturing out all the excess deck and weight I can. Once I see how it sails the redesign will start, I can't resist making improvements.
Cheers

[Daedalus62]

Thank you for you support, tiaki. 

That's the part of modelling I like the most... Research, design and especially building your own... Opposite to buying a RTS (Ready-to-Sail?) from the hobby store... The building process is great fun to me... So no "down side" there. 

I recall (many, many moons ago!), building my own design model airplanes, from scratch... They flew pretty well, I dare to say... Not in my hands however. 

Spot on, the idea was/is just that... Build something (relatively) simple, just to get on the water to learn and sense the feel of things... The JIF2 design was chosen because the plans/instructions available are highly detailed... A big plus for a first time boat/yacht builder like me.

Nice on your Viper, tiaki... Some pictures would be nice, if you're so inclined.

Hummm... Standard rig vs swing rig?... Another variant to research/learn upon...

Cheers 

[tiaki]

You should find there is a a lot of support out there for newb's. The big problem, some of it is slanted. Knowing how to sift it is the key, I made some obvious poor choices in the early days but due to the nature of the work I do, sifting information has become second nature now days. My first yacht build was Model Boats plan Twister a 36R class yacht. From there is has grown into an obsession of modifying and design. I have developed a hull shape that can be built to most any length, to date from 750mm to 1500mm lengths. It is a 36 inch design that has been scaled down, stretched and scaled up, even built into a tri multi hull. I was building it into a slender 4 footer when the RG65 took hold. I chopped off the stern sections and moved around the frame profiles to build a beamy RG65. Our winds down here in NZ are generally stronger which tells me I think I need more righting moment to hold up the A rig longer. Just in case I have it wrong the Viper is being built, she takes the same rig so the only loss will be a few strips of balsa and some fiberglass. My buddy is also building one so at least I won't be left playing with myself! It will be interesting to see the variations from two independent builds of the same yacht and how they perform. I'll snap some pic's latter, work is calling.

[tiaki]

Two Rg65's.

[tiaki]

Viper RG65 nearing completion.

[tiaki]

After some heated discussions over the placing of bow bumpers ie; a strip of foam at deck level, this was built to make it obvious that a foam strip at deck level isn't going to make any difference. I have yet to decide if I should paint a bulbous bow warning diagram on the bow section! She's 1.5meters and a twin mast ketch carrying 1000square inches of sail. This will make 4 yachts to this design in the club but the only one with the ram bow. They are very quick and easily packed into the car with masts 1.7 meter tall. Due for lake trials in the next weeks.

[Daedalus62]

Hi tiaki... Nice yachts, looking good!... Hope your design performs well... Thanks for sharing!

Just curious... I've seen different ways of doing this but, what's your preferred method for closing/sealing the hatches?... The screw on top from a plastic jar... A purpose made screw on wood lid... Just some duct tape/sticker film... Other...

Cheers

[tiaki]

I have and do use all of those, With the exception of  the wooden one, but the preferred option is the yacht twist lock inspection hatch as used here. Unfortunately the smallest is 4 inches which is not practicable on yachts smaller than 36 inches. The green RG65 previously shown has a cut out deck which is intended to be permanently adhered with a pill bottle screw top inserted for access to the switch and charging jack. The Viper is up for discussion but likely to be sail stick decks and undecided what to use for the charging jack and switch. While I try to keep everything simple and minimalist sometimes it just plain cannot be done. Ultimately I try to build everything myself to keep down the costs but occasionally the rational cuts in and I use bought in products which can be simpler and more cost effective in the long term. I have jousted many a time over the cost of items but the reality is when you have built well over 100 boats costs do get considerable. My current fleet of ready to go yachts now stands at 16. Every new yacht is always going to be the last, this is an obsession! With 4 more sail winches in the draw I'm guessing the last isn't on the horizon. I don't look forward to retirement and down sizing!

[Daedalus62]

Thank you, tiaki 

It's a good obsession however 

Cheers

[tiaki]

I keep telling my wife I could waste more money on booze, smokes and women instead of model boats! I'm left with a totally unrestricted access to anything modelling other than the two legged models!
I see my mates with their restrictive budgets buying everything and wonder just how much I'd be spending if I bought in everything instead of building all but the radio gear.
I'm not convinced this is a good obsession but it certainly beats some of the other options out there.