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Author Topic: 3D Printer  (Read 14060 times)

RAAArtyGunner

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3D Printer
« on: December 23, 2013, 09:04:38 pm »

 
Maybe those members closer to the action can shed more light on this story, which if correct is promising for our hobby
 
 
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/deltaprintr-uni-student-couldnt-afford-a-3d-printer-so-he-built-one-20131223-2ztxy.html
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marinemole

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 10:54:23 pm »

I've only done a lttle bit of research on the net so not best qualified to comment. It is possible to get into 3d printing for a few hundred pounds by building your own machine from a kit of parts apparently. The general consensus seems to be that preparing the 3d drawing is the major learning curve. Also calibrating the machine seems to be an issue.
An alternative appears to be to produce your design and have it printed commercially. The vendors claim that the finished product will be better as they are using superior machines. I've seen one company in the Uk advertise a starting price of 15 pounds sterling. After seeing this I drew up a 25mm AA gun using Google Sketchup (free) but haven't done anything about getting it printed.


As I say I'm not qualified to venture an opinion and will be interested to see contributions from people actively involved.


Andy

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kinmel

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 10:58:23 pm »

They are getting cheaper, one of our Club members has just bought one, but I have not seen anything made on it yet.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 11:25:36 pm »

If you draw the design using CAD and then use a 3D printer have you actually made anything in the model making sense?

Discuss.

Colin
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 11:28:53 pm »

My father in law has one and its OK but not great


He has the Makerbot 2 which was not what one would call cheap and the results have been fair to disappointing.  Even with help from an "Expert" the resulting prints have been fair to middling.
Like someone said the hardest part is actually getting the design ready for print.
Also the print resolution is pretty low so a fair bit of clean up is required post printing.


The idea is great.... but its still really a "fiddlers" toy. Give it another couple of years I think there will be some well priced, easy to use and low maintenance models on sale.


If you draw the design using CAD and then use a 3D printer have you actually made anything in the model making sense?

Discuss.

Colin


I guess it depends on your point of view, if you have designed an printed a fitting for a model then yes.... its no different to creating flags or decals on a computer and then printing them off.



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Hellboy Paul

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 11:32:11 pm »

If you draw the design using CAD and then use a 3D printer have you actually made anything in the model making sense?

Discuss.

Colin


In my opinion yes....


A 3D printer is a tool just the same as a lathe, a milling machine, electric sander or a scalpel......


Paul.
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cos918

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 11:41:51 pm »

I have had  X6 1:1250 boats printed in 3d. the first 2 were in strong and flexible which has a surface like 600 grit wet and dry. I then upgrade to ultra frosted detal the results were good. I have used Shape ways.
People who make stuff on 3d printers are not model makers. I say they are they are just using a different type of modelling medium.
John
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 01:09:22 am »

My father in law has one and its OK but not great


He has the Makerbot 2 which was not what one would call cheap and the results have been fair to disappointing.  Even with help from an "Expert" the resulting prints have been fair to middling.
Like someone said the hardest part is actually getting the design ready for print.
Also the print resolution is pretty low so a fair bit of clean up is required post printing.


The idea is great.... but its still really a "fiddlers" toy. Give it another couple of years I think there will be some well priced, easy to use and low maintenance models on sale.



I guess it depends on your point of view, if you have designed an printed a fitting for a model then yes.... its no different to creating flags or decals on a computer and then printing them off.

Because he also was dissatisfied with Makerbot, the student in the article, see link in first post above, made a cheaper (hundreds of dollars as opposed to a couple of thousand dollars) and better printer.
 
So is it factual or just a media beat up???
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dpbarry

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 01:16:12 am »

The school where I work has just purchased one of the Denford UP Plus 2 3D Printers.

Hope to get a go with it in the new year.

Declan
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Subculture

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 07:51:51 am »

I won't buy a 3D printer. Bit like home printing- I don't bother. If I want printed photos I go to a bureau- their printers can produce much better results than anything I would have at home, and they get to deal with the hassle of jams, clogged heads etc. I have a cheap black and white laser printer for printing casual hard copy.

Round the corner is cheap bureau style 3D printing. At the moment it's expensive, because its still rather exclusive, patents are tied up etc. Big outfits like Hewlett Packard are stepping into the ring from next year, and I think we're about to see the cost of professional machines take a tumble.

Laser sintering is the most practical way of printing strong and inexpensive parts, and I think you will see new machines coming onto the market in the next 12 months.

With regards to the topic of 'is it modelmaking'. In my view, it isn't, just a different skill set, bit like comparing a draughtsman to a toolmaker. Anyone that thinks 3D CAD work is a cakewalk is deluding themselves, and 3D printing throws a few extra hiccups into the equation.

How do you know if something is 3D printed or scratchbuilt? Well you don't, simple as that, any tell-tale signs could me easily masked with careful sanding and painting.

I guess this sort of thing matters more to modellers who like to compete in exhibitions or those who judge the quality of entrants. Looking at it another way, how many modellers avail themselves of CNC machining, waterjet/laser cutting, photoetc. These are all partly automated modelling techniques, and they've been around for longer than 3D printing.
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Circlip

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 10:36:44 am »

Quote
bit like comparing a draughtsman to a toolmaker.

  Some of us good Toolmakers were promoted to the Drawing Office  O0  Not all were "Instant" Draughties.
 
  Regards  Ian
 
  Having said that, some of us were proper slaves err "Apprentices"
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 10:56:42 am »

There's nothing wrong with 3D printing as such but for me it would take away all the pleasure of making things from raw materials, wood, metal, plastic sheet etc. The whole tactile experience which attracts me to modelling is completely missing.

However, I take digital photographs rather than paint so it's horses for courses really!

Colin
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warspite

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 11:10:29 am »

I supose for the cost the lastest 'cheap' 3D printers give a result akin to lego blocks on a miniture scale, by that I mean the resolution is not quite as good, the more expensive machines can give better resolution but at an obvious cost, 3D printing in my opinion is similar to buying an airfix kit and putting it - whether it be a plane, tank, gun or crew - on any vessel, the object is to enhance the boat or display, if it is modified to represent a different version of the item then there is the 'modelling' aspect other than building and painting it. Printing a boat is still to me 'modelling' there is still the craft of 'designing' as most real world items are not computer modelled and imputing the data is a craft in its self, the printing to me is another form of moulding, where the item being made is being repeated with the same results - you get some defects due to the natural inconsistancies of the material, and in the end there is still the cleaning up to be done and the painting. the recent canadian patrol boat is still a model and has to be assembled and decalled or painted.
 
But thats my opinion.
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guitar man

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 11:33:44 am »

If you draw the design using CAD and then use a 3D printer have you actually made anything in the model making sense?

Discuss.

Colin
This is an interesting point ,first let me say we all get what we get from our model making what ever you do scratch build ,kit build etc. Is 3D printing any different to a kit as long as we get a finished result we are after, that's what counts.
However the thing is that it is yet another means of reducing peoples skill or there ability to become skilled by trying to make them. Yes I know there is skill in drawing etc but I mean they are taking away the crafts man in us. I see this in my own work trade too.
Is it just another tool, I think not, does a knife produce a part for you by itself. lathes and millers well that's another thing cnc or not.
Where will it all end, will we just 3D print the whole boat having only to install the RC stuff and paint it, how is that any different to buying a almost ready to run?
Coming back to Colin's question wow this is difficult, did you make the part in a model sense then no. If you fit the part to a boat have you made a model then yes.
This is my opinion and there is no intent to offend
Regards Tony

 

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essex2visuvesi

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 12:48:56 pm »

There is still the research required to get the correct lines and shapes, so I think it's just another progression in the hobby, like fibreglassing, or using other "new" materials
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NFMike

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 01:22:09 pm »

I think for most people the time and effort of producing a 3D print of a single item won't be worth it - it will likely be as quick or quicker to just make it from scratch.
For repetitive detail items like bollards and vents there would probably be a big saving using 3D - but since these sort of parts are often supplied in a kit or bought from a specialist there wouldn't really be any difference in the content of the final model.
As to reducing craft skills - well that's been happening for years already as manufacturers produce an ever larger selection of ready made kits and parts at ever increasing levels of detail and finish. Don't forget that a lot of scratch-building is done only because a commercial part isn't available.

Without doubt 3D will change the hobby/industry, but I suspect it will take share from the 'plastic kit' side as much or more than the 'modelling' side.

grendel

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2013, 03:31:52 pm »

at the moment I am working on plans (in 3D) of a couple of boats in CAD, all I will ask is how much difference is there spending a year making a model kit, to spending that same time inputting data into a drawing, rib by rib, stringer by stringer.
I have no wish to denigrade anyones skills as it seems to me many buy ready made hulls for their boats, there isnt much difference between buying a ready made hull and printing up a fitting, technology improves and modellers use technology and skill to make models. many years ago before hull moulds modellers would make hulls from scratch (some still do), I bet the same argument raged then, that using a mould wasnt doing things properly, well modelling to me is visualising the resulting model and constructing it, by whatever means you are happiest.
Grendel
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carlmt

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2014, 10:34:50 pm »

As a part of our kit development of the Free Enterprise car ferry, we have just sent the files for all the deck fittings to a UK commercial 3D print company for a first test run of the designs.
They will be produced in white nylon and we are told that they will have the texture of a Polo mint!
The main thing for us is the balance between the cost v. quality of 3d printing ALL the deck fittings for the kit against just having a master set printed and then using the masters to create resin castings in the traditional way.
When we get them back, we will let you know how good (or bad!) they are and which way WE think we might go with them.
 
As for the 3D drawing prep - this took just over 2 weeks.
All the best
Carl

cos918

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2014, 11:39:56 pm »

Hi Carl.
 I had a ferry printed in white strong flexible which is white nylon plastic . The finish had a surface of like 600 grit wet and dry. I then got some printed in  frosted ultra detail. I am happy with the results. For a master I would recomend you go for the more expensive FUD material.
john

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inertia

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 11:52:35 am »

If you draw the design using CAD and then use a 3D printer have you actually made anything in the model making sense?
Discuss.
Colin
OK - let's take this a step at a time. Suppose I'm asked to produce a design of a model for a new kit.
If I use AutoCAD to draw the plan and parts would you say that was in any material way different from using a pencil and drafting film? The result is the same i.e. a full-size plan and finished shapes for plastic or wooden parts. I've just used a different skill to most modellers i.e. CAD drawing.
Now I print out the parts and use paper templates to cut them out manually from sheet material. Cheating? No - I don't think so. That's no different from tracing a paper plan etc, is it?
Let's say now that instead of printing out the parts etc I send the computer file to the kit manufacturer who loads it onto his CNC router and cuts out the parts from me to assemble. I wouldn't accept that in these circumstances I "haven't made anything in the modelling sense" either. I have produced a unique set of parts for a model but I've used computer technology instead of manual skills.
Take this on to the 3D scenario. What's the difference between "2D" sheet parts and a 3D "printed" part if both are produced from my original artwork/design? I may have used a piece of machinery that relatively few have access to but I don't see what difference that makes. If I subsequently take that part and fit it to my model does that make it not scratch-built? Does the fact that I might have asked someone else to use his machine to make my design somehow negate my involvement in its origination? Compare this with sending a sheet of original shapes to be etched in brass sheet by a specialist firm, or having some home-made metal parts chrome-plated - or even using a copy-shop to print out your CAD plans?
No. Sorry, but if that part did not exist before I designed/drew/plotted/printed it then it's scratch modelling, irrespective of what process was used to produce it and by whom that process was applied.
I don't recall a similar debate when folk began using silicon-rubber moulds to "mass-produce" identical parts for their own models. I don't see any difference to that and 3D printing.
Now..............if I were to BUY a computer file, produced by someone else, which contained the 3D pattern for a model part then that would be a different thing altogether. Discuss?
DM
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carlmt

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 12:17:42 pm »

I can see a time when, if you wanted to build a kit of something smallish like an aircraft at 1:72 or small boat, instead of buying a box of components you bought a CD-ROM containing the files and print them out yourself. The traditional Airfix kit would become obselete : it would be supplied on the CD.
This, obviously, would require that you had access to a 3D printer...........but I can see that happening in a few years time when the cost has come down and the quality has gone up - just like 2D colour printing at home.
DM - this goes some way to answering your last point about buying the CD files..........is it modelling? In my view - yes. Just as it was modelling to buy the Airfix kit in a box. There are just different levels that's all..............
Carl

RAAArtyGunner

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 08:45:32 pm »

Here's my two bobs worth.
 
At the end of the day you are still creating a model of a boat, plane, etc, albeit within your own skill sets, expertise and equipment.
 
Some results may be more realistic than others and truer to scale but all are models, to quote a prolific fellow mayhem builder commentator, using "Builders license"
 
Those who do use "hand tools" but equipment, such as power tools, lathes etc are still producing models, same as using an airbrush instead of a paint brush, still painting, just different equipment.
 
The sooner 3D printers become readily available, cost wise, the better for the hobby, because people like me who can't scratch build everything, will be able to tackle more complicated bits and pieces.
 
 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 11:28:26 pm »

I don't mind what other people do but I get much of my modelling satisfaction from creating something with my own hands from wood, metal and just the odd bit of plastic.

Colin
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nick_75au

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 08:40:10 am »




PatMats amazing build, this is a true scratch build IMO.


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2042278


It will come to a point where you don't buy a Kit, rather a file which you either print your self or take to the local Kinkos/ Officeworks (whatever local chain print shop) Much as most software is sold these days
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mermod

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Re: 3D Printer
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 09:14:56 am »

It's a funny one isn't it, no matter how many hours I spend converting printed plans into vector files I'm always treated as a bit of a modelling leper because I choose to cut my stuff with a laser instead of a Stanley knife, quite often I hear, oh that's lovely model.............................but then again you have a laser, yep that's right, no skill in interpreting plans, quite often so old and faded they can barely be read, choosing materials, sanding, filling, painting, taking molds and everything else, once they hear the word "laser cutter" that's pretty much it, it must have put itself together.
By the way this only applies to those down by the water, never had probs here on mayhem.

Phill
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