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Author Topic: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN  (Read 2321 times)

Neil

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BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« on: January 10, 2014, 01:26:25 PM »

I am a born in Britain none passport holding citizen and have been since my birth in 1951, APART FROM WHEN I HELD ONE BETWEEN 1976- 1986.

My wife is a None passport holding British citizen born in this country in 1968,

 and yet when my daughter age 16 applied for her passport so that she can apply to either the Royal Navy or Merchant Navy as her chosen career,....................

and to serve this god forsaken country she has firstly had to send our birth certificates, our marriage certificate,....................  and her own birth certificate .................

before being told that she now has to appear before an interview panel for her to PROVE that she is a British citizen.

the fact that both her parents are CRB cleared to work with children,

the fact that we both have driving licenses with photographs,

and the fact that I am/was HOME OFFICE SECURITY CLEARED is not enough.

Because we don't have passports to "prove" that were are Brits, the don't believe my daughter is OF British  citizenship UNTIL  they interview her...........look at the sentence on their letter..........what the h*** is going on in this country of ours.

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
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NFMike

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 01:55:29 PM »

I don't see the problem. You can have CRB, a driving licence and security clearance without being a British citizen, so they are right to check. It's pretty standard I think these days.

Circlip

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 02:06:23 PM »

Yes Neil, frustrating but it's the price we have pay due to "our" multicultural approach to todays society.
 
  Regards   Ian.
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Liverbudgie

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 04:46:32 PM »

It has ever been so.

When I applied to join the Sea Cadets, in 1961, and the RN in 1963, I had to be able to prove that both my parents were born and bred in the UK. With the current policy of welcoming all sorts of people into this country, legally or not, it is little wonder that the authorities take this line and I'm glad that they do.

The fact that you and your wife are CRB cleared as I am, is of no relevance at all; anyway it only lasts for three years at most.

LB
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raflaunches

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 05:03:20 PM »

I had the same problem when I applied for my passport in 2007, I had to prove that I was British born and they wanted my parents birth certificates. So I sent them registered post with mine and got rejected because they were not of the correct version of birth certificates! We all had to reapply for updated birth certificates with the additional info that was not required before 1986!
What annoyed us more than anything is the fact that my Dad is a retired member of the RAF and I was (and still am) a serving member of the RAF since 2003! They refused to accept the military's word that we are British citizens and had to get a doctors note to prove we were who we said we were! Even if they do talk to each other they don't believe what each other say! %%
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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 05:52:07 PM »

On a similar vein, when I had a CRB check a few years back one of the questions I was asked was " have you ever had a different name" my answer "yes" when I was born. I had to find my original birth certificate and the documents regarding my adoption, this was all to prove how long I had used another name. I have held a passport since I was eighteen, and at the time my sister in law had just started to work for the MOD and my wife and I had just been vetted by the MOD for her to start work, all that did not count

Brian
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Neil

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 06:12:24 PM »

It has ever been so.

The fact that you and your wife are CRB cleared as I am, is of no relevance at all; anyway it only lasts for three years at most.

LB

It is, Jon, in the fact that these checks  are done for just such purposes, and ALL SUCH INFORMATION  are kept on a data base for all such applications so that all governmental departments can gain this information quickly and efficiently.
I am not complaining that I have had to supply such info........but all information as to my and my wife's nationality is easily available through such documentation and these complete beurocrats don't use that info thread!!!!
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 06:49:59 PM »

sounds about right lol


ar5es and elbows springs to mind
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mikearace

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 07:50:45 PM »

Neil
 
I sympathise with you as the amount of such red tape has grown significantly over the last 12 years.  But I also sympathise with people in jobs like my own who have to put in place measures to meet the ever increasing red tape that Parliament and their agencies such as the Border Agency lays down.
 
10 years ago to employ someone all that was needed was a very basic series of checks such as an NI number and a P45 and another form of ID.  Since then a whole host of further checks with guidance by the Home Office on both checking Identity and Right to Work with Lists that neverend - List A and List B.  Any prospective employer who fails to follow these processes does not have a defence to any illegal working and the costs of fines are enormous.
 
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/employersandsponsors/preventingillegalworking/currentguidanceandcodes/summary-guidance.pdf?view=Binary
 
Believe it or not an expired passport in itself does not constitute a right to work in the UK nor prove identity.
 
As part of my job I have to review and change my organisations policy on this and most policies we review remain the same for the normal review period of 2-3 years.  Policies on this are changed every other month due to further changes in legislation, legal cases and guidance.  Frankly at times I despair when I have just changed it and a few days later ( I kid you not) I have to change it again.  I have just changed it for the Rumanian and Bulgarian EU A2 countries right to work.  Shortly before that I had to change it to reflect changes to Croatian ID documentation. I know that I will again have to change it in Feb March to reflect changes to Visa and Work Permits from 1st April already when that happens.  Passports and right to work are not just about being a UK citizen now. 
 
And as for CRB checks, well again this is something that has also continually changed since the then CRB was brought in around 12 years ago.  Before then they were just police checks with no cost no fee nothing and accessed by the local police and the national database.  Then CRB checks were brought in. At a large fee for the organisation that won the contract.  Since then this has also continually changed.  They are in fact now called DBS checks not CRB checks.  And there have always been a lot of fallacies about DBS Checks (CRB)
 
Quote
anyway it only lasts for three years at most.

They don't.  They only reflect what convictions, cautions, warnings or other information such as vetting and barring information is known on the date the check was made.  Many councils and organisations have adopted a 'three year check'.  It is actually illegal to make a check without appropriate reason to do so and at the level of the check that is appropriate to the person being checked.  So for example a receptionist in a hospital should not have an Enhanced Check if they are not caring for or have responsibility for a vulnerable person such as a patient.  The check should only be made when first employing or taking up the role or changing a role that has a different level of DBS check   And if after that the check is made again every 3 years for no other reason than that council or organisation thinks that this seems to be a good time period before a further check, that is also potentially illegal if there are no other genuine grounds to carry out a further check.  However the view that it only lasts for 3 years has become an urban myth, which whilst it maybe good practice if there is good reason to carry out a renewal check, is something that shouldn't take place under the DBS's own guidance.  It does though make more money for the DBS so on the side it isn't actively discouraged. A new development for the DBS is that people can now register, for a fee of course, to allow new employers to check or for annual checks or updates to any offences in the last 12 months can then be made.  Strange that, a new service and quelle surprise a further fee.  Anyone could think it has moved on from the original outcome of the Huntley case to protect people to instead become a money based service which would be unfortunate wouldn't it?   
     
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 09:07:40 PM »

We'll let this run until Sunday - Admin
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tigertiger

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 11:51:32 PM »

One other facet is the Data Protection Act.
Agencies are not allowed to share data (with the exception of the chaps at Cheltenham who seem to be above the law) without the written consent of the subject of the data. There is not, and probably could not be, a form for blanket consent. Each request must be dealt with individually. If the data requested includes more people than just the individual (you) it gets more difficult.
Sending out and getting all the consent forms signed and returned  could be more bureaucratic than asking for birth certificates, etc.
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cabman

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 12:23:25 AM »

What TigerTiger said is true. I used to be a taxi driver with the East Riding of Yorkshire Council who rightly insisted that all drivers had to pass an enhanced CRB check which had to be paid for by us. The Council charged us 40 for this check as we were self-employed although they paid it for all their employees who needed one.
Ridiculously, if you wished to tender to carry school children on Council funded school runs, you had to supply a second CRB check to the Transport Dept of the same Council because the two departments could not share information under the Data Protection Act. This cost the driver another 40. This was still the case only a year ago although I understand the Council was planning on introducing a consent form that the driver could sign thereby allowing such information to be shared by different departments of the Council  (all based in the same building) It still wouldn't be off any use though because drivers had to supply a new CRB check every 3 years to renew their hackney licence, but to apply for a new tender ( which only lasts for 1 year), the CRB used for that has to less than 3months old. Like an MOT on a car, the CRB check is only relevant on the day it is issued.
Bureaucracy does seem ridiculous at times but I'm sure there will be a reason for it. The powers to be are damned if they do or damned if they don't. When things do go wrong, we are all there to criticise.
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 01:05:39 AM »

If you want Bureaucracy you should try some of the Scandinavian countries.
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grendel

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2014, 09:10:20 AM »

my mum has all sorts of problems as she only has her Birth certificate and Marriage licence, all the bills are in my Dads name, they tried to get passports a few years back and gave up as they couldnt get together enough different forms of identity for the two of them, my father not driving doesnt have a drivers licence, so he just has his Birth certificate and utility bills.
Nowadays it is assumed that everyone has multiple means of ID, when people ask for ID with a photo attached they are both stumped, as neither has any (and a bus pass doesnt count apparently)
Grendel
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gingyer

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2014, 01:31:09 PM »

I work for differant companies as a sub contractor
For the same place of work I have:
2x counter terrorism checks (advanced) and 2x CRB (advanced) checks
Because I was there on behalf for 2 companies


Off the top of my head I have
7x CRB
4 x counter terrorism checks
2 financial disclosures, all because people won't share info  >>:-( >>:-(




When they were talking about bringing back ID cards I would be happy IF they could be done properly
So it would be similar in appearance to you passport and it contained your driving licence, any CRB checks, counter terrorism checks and any other checks and disclosures you have had. You go to a place they ask for you ID scan it and the computer tells them what you are or are not approved for. This would probably be a discussion for another topic :-))

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Neil

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2014, 01:35:27 PM »

my mum has all sorts of problems as she only has her Birth certificate and Marriage licence, all the bills are in my Dads name, they tried to get passports a few years back and gave up as they couldnt get together enough different forms of identity for the two of them, my father not driving doesnt have a drivers licence, so he just has his Birth certificate and utility bills.
Nowadays it is assumed that everyone has multiple means of ID, when people ask for ID with a photo attached they are both stumped, as neither has any (and a bus pass doesnt count apparently)
Grendel

it's absolutely disgusting to be honest, and I feel very strongly about this. neil.
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Sandy

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2014, 04:24:30 PM »

If you want Bureaucracy you should try some of the Scandinavian countries.

Or the US... and while there add a whole dollop of paranoia as well.

Never come across a country so scared of its own shadow.
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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2014, 05:02:57 PM »

it's absolutely disgusting to be honest, and I feel very strongly about this. neil.

Neil,you and your family are Brits born and bred
You have to prove who you are.
With proof of birth etc
Illegal Jimmy's don't need the proof us Brits do
Roll on death time for a long sleep.

Ned
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Brian60

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2014, 05:28:20 PM »

I worked with a lad who applied for his first passport this summer, his name was Ben van der Eykin-yep you guessed he too had to supply copies of his birth certificate, his mothers and his fathers then attend a person to person interview. This interview lasted 30 minutes and he was asked to take his parents passports with him also!!

Just because he has a dutch surname even with all the documentation they refused at the interview to go ahead with the passport. He had to attend a further interview and provide yet more paperwork along with submissions from my then employer showing how long he had worked with them.

yet you can walk into this country claim asylum and be given all the paperwork you could ever need.

Colin Bishop

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2014, 06:52:20 PM »

Quote
Or the US... and while there add a whole dollop of paranoia as well.

Never come across a country so scared of its own shadow.

Quite right! Visit the good ol' USA and you'll never complain about Great Britain again!

And once you finally get in, it's all religious zealots running around with guns - bit like the Middle East really.

Colin
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Liverbudgie

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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2014, 07:11:44 PM »

I once worked with a Dutch guy who had served with distinction in the Dutch resistance during the war, his wife was also Dutch, their children were born and education here. When the eldest one left school in set his heart on becoming a Liverpool pilot, he applied to become an apprentice and had all the qualifications and recommendations required, he was turned down because his parents were not British by birth. this was nearly forty years ago.

LB
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Re: BEUROCRATIC BRITAIN
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 12:50:12 PM »

:police:  Topic Locked.
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