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Author Topic: Humber smack circa 1880- build log  (Read 54951 times)

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2014, 01:01:16 PM »

 Looking at p40 I have thrown in the almost finished deck as well, that has the two fore hatches in place along with the horse, this is an iron band transverse across the foredeck to take the sheet of the jib sail, no control being necessary, it was allowed to move along the horse as the wind blew it, only lengthening or shortening the sheet as required. Poking out from under the deck and also in plain view in the previous pic are the final oak planks for the bulwarks waiting to be glued into place.
 

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2014, 01:03:29 PM »

 Then on to p41 and p42, shock horror! The hull is painted, not as I wanted but it is painted.  I was looking at the pale green colour for the anti fouling, however I wanted to be faithful to the book and in it he mentions that anti fouling in the 1800ís for these boats was actually tar! Now that is simply depicted using matt black paint, my problem is the nearest hobby shop to me in Spain is 60 kilometres away, I canít justify a 120 kilometre round trip for a 2Ä pot of paint. I did source some gloss black house paint closer to us,  a 250ml tin for 8Ä. But after applying it to some scrap wood and leaving it for a day to thoroughly dry I sanded the surface to remove the shine, it was horrible! So I went with the old faithful red oxide primer that I brought over from the UK last September along with other modelling stuff (yes its available here again 60 kilometres away, we are remote!) So I used the green above the water line and up to deck level, I am unsure as to whether to paint the bulwarks this colour or leave natural oak as I was planning, March says both options were used depending on the vagaries of the owners. You will also notice that the strapping for the deadeyes is in place, I wanted to get these properly fastened inside of the hull before the deck is glued into place and space is limited for adding epoxy over the ends of the pins. Dressmakers pins make great bolt heads at this scale as long as you cut to length so that the pointy bit is removed!
Finally you may also have noticed on the wall a couple of sheets of plans for the Brixham trawler ĎValerianí I am using these for the general arrangement of rigging etc. Any reference source that is available can be adapted as these boats, irrespective of port or builder were all based on the original Brixham boats, if it works why change it- then as now is always a good philosophy. These plans are available from Brown, Son & Ferguson, their website is www.skipper.co.uk.
 

hammer

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2014, 03:22:11 PM »

Brian coming along fine. The paint on mine is the result of an accident. I painted in the colours you see now, but decided to change to black all over. Unfortunately or fortunately the grey paint reacted, and the black stated to bubble so in desperation I removed it. Well all I could but I liked it so it stayed.
I have included pictures of the rudder, out of water retracted & extended in the when water.
I also utilised the Valerian plan used the hull lines, & master hand for the rigging. 
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Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2014, 07:48:32 PM »

Your model is the conundrum I now face Hammer. I have new and pristine paint on mine, but to me nothing looks so false as unblemished paint. In the real world it would be peeling and blistered like yours due to weather and seas. So I would like to weather mine when done, it's just bringing myself to actually carry it out on the finished boat. Maybe I'll take photo's of ot first and then rough it up so it looks like a real smack.

hammer

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2014, 08:10:44 PM »

Good idea Brian. As I said it was an accident. I have posted photos of the Pilgrim being rebuilt at Dartmouth. Now completed. Note the yard just a large band saw in the shed that's all.
I am glad to see you can see some of your planks, as it should be.
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Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2014, 09:09:19 PM »

@Hammer. Yes I have one or two planks showing {-) I can never understand why build a sailing ship and then sand smooth the timber, they were never like that in real life. Yes if you are depicting a 'modern' hull in steel but your material is wood. I don't have a problem sanding and filling and even coating the outside in resin. You are afterall showing a smooth steel hull, but a wooden sailing ship should be wood!

I like your reference pics Hammer. As it happens the two books I have that refer to these boats March's Sailing Trawlers and Watts'  Holmes of the Humber (life story of George Holmes 1861-1940) The first printed in 1950 the second in 2009 both mention the total non existence of the Humber variety of smack, this is not so! One did survive and was sold I think originally to Iceland. From there it made its way to various countries and owners until finally it has ended up back in Lowestoft! It is now owned by the Excelsior trust and is in storage until funds can be found to restore it.

Old ships may be gone but are not forgotten and sometimes just sometimes turn up again.

derekwarner

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2014, 10:31:32 PM »

Brian56 & hammer.......I agree there is nothing more satisfying that to see a wooden hull being built in traditional ways....[we have a member BB in Queensland of OZ building a model in a similar manner in another thread]

An interesting aspect of this thread is the securing of the planks to the frames traditionally with treenails [& hex head bolts].......... :-))...but it also suggests that modern technology is helping

Is the glue being used for the treenails a modern polyurethane?.........possibly the most advanced gluing material for wet environments & actually cures best with moistened timber

...& even better waterproofing qualities that that old ground up horse hoof granules we used to melt down in a boiling water bath...... O0......Derek
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Derek Warner

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Mad Scientist

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2014, 02:33:47 AM »

...Brown, Son & Ferguson, their website is www.skipper.co.uk.

Well, this was a pleasant surprise! I'd had no idea that this firm was still in business.
Thanks!
 
Tom
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Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2014, 04:16:35 AM »


Well, this was a pleasant surprise! I'd had no idea that this firm was still in business.
Thanks!
 
Tom

Online catalogue is a bit tedious, plans listed by ship name no images so you have no idea of what you are looking at unless you are after a specifice named vessel.

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2014, 04:21:50 AM »

Brian56 & hammer.......I agree there is nothing more satisfying that to see a wooden hull being built in traditional ways....[we have a member BB in Queensland of OZ building a model in a similar manner in another thread]

An interesting aspect of this thread is the securing of the planks to the frames traditionally with treenails [& hex head bolts].......... :-)) ...but it also suggests that modern technology is helping

Is the glue being used for the treenails a modern polyurethane?.........possibly the most advanced gluing material for wet environments & actually cures best with moistened timber

...& even better waterproofing qualities that that old ground up horse hoof granules we used to melt down in a boiling water bath...... O0 ......Derek

From my reading reference material Humber variants were with few exceptions bolted and then plugged as per the photo of Hammer's. As to the glue shown in that refurbishment pic of Hammers it would have to be a guess,  but looking at the drips it doesn't have the yellow tinge of traditional hoof glue.

mrpenguin

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2014, 04:57:31 AM »

....The drum servo for the sails is proving my sticking point at the moment, the drum is not sufficiently large enough in diameter to take the actual thickness of sheet that is required for scale appearance. So I am open to suggestions here. I was looking at direct connection to the drum, but to do this will mean using my scale sheet above decks and a certain length below deck, then it would have to be downsized by tying a thinner cord to it so that it passes around the drum.

This could cause you endless grief if not sorted properly.
The scale sheets must be very big in diameter as those winch drums will hold a fair bit.

Are you relying on the sail to pull the sheet off the winch drum and up through the fairlead?
Do you have some idea how much the sheet will need to travel from close haul to sheeted out?
There is the potential for tangles within the winch drum and also between the winch and the fairlead below decks..
You may be better off with the winch running an endless loop and attaching your sheets to the running loop.... I am not quite sure how things are supposed to go together with the layout of the boat or how many sails you are controlling so I may be way off track.... apologies if so...

By the way, those winches are currently available in 1.5, 2, 4 and 6 turn variants... I think it is the HobbyKing ones you are using?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__285__254__Boats_Parts-Sail_Boats.html
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Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2014, 12:26:43 PM »

2 1/2 turns mr penguin, sourced via a shop in the UK called Howes. But you have seen my dilemma, the sheets are 1.2mm diameter at scale size. I am looking closely at a closed loop system in a book I have to see if I should go that route rather than direct connection.

hammer

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2014, 04:34:14 PM »

Trawler PILGRIM, yes I believe the glue is a polyurethane type. Also using mastic instead of pitch in the joints. 
Brian. I have found the closed loop system is much more reliable than direct drive. In the photo below is my method. The whole thing in an elongated box with the servo mounted on the side in the middle, with a pulley at each end one spring loaded. The box is removable as a unit.
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mrpenguin

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2014, 09:32:33 PM »

@Brian56:

have a look at this video of a loop winch setup with winch below deck and loop on top, it might provide you with some inspiration perhaps....

This is on a cheap Chinese boat of mine, it works great.... far better than the original setup that relied on the sails pulling the sheets up through the fairleads. The boat is a Surmount, 800mm long.... I know it is a long way from what you are doing but the winching setup may be relevant to adapt for your boat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JWhI3F_MY74
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hammer

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2014, 07:30:04 PM »

That would be all right on a scale.Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter where the lines come back to the cockpit. But not on a reasonable representation of a Sailing Trawler.
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mrpenguin

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2014, 09:09:51 PM »

That would be all right on a scale.Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter where the lines come back to the cockpit. But not on a reasonable representation of a Sailing Trawler.

@Hammer:
No worries.... I shared the video as I was thinking that some of the mechanical principles may be of value for what Brian56 is considering.

I did find this thread where you posted similar information that may be of use to Brian56:
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,46145.msg467531.html#msg467531
Includes a really good diagram of the loop winch....

I am not familiar with how a sailing trawler would be sheeted, nor even the sail plan of Brian's as they seem to have a few variations. I have had a look at the photos you posted relating to your trawler but I guess I am just missing the basics of what sheets go where if you know what I mean. I will watch with interest to see how Brian56 solves this...

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hammer

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2014, 09:16:53 PM »

Mr Penguin Don't get me wrong for a pilot cutter it would be good.
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mrpenguin

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2014, 10:12:05 PM »

Mr Penguin Don't get me wrong for a pilot cutter it would be good.

@hammer:
No offence taken, just interested in how the sheeting might work on a boat like this... obviously the boat is laid out differently to a Bermuda rig and the sheeting requirements wold be much different. From your other post, I gather the mizzen only needs half the travel of the mainsail, thinking this may apply to Brian56 as well?
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Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2014, 03:11:19 PM »

OK guys, with the limited space I have inside the hull, today I tried various combinations of servo position etc. Nothing was going to be easy, most locations just would not work because of the physical size of the sail servo. In the end I have gone with the included drawing. Two pulleys at opposing ends firmly anchored into the bulheads. The servo remained in its original position and I added a jockey wheel retained by a spring to act as a shock absorber to the main line. the sheets for the main and mizzen booms will come off the longest  side of the servo line. This gives me about 100mm movement along the hull forward and aft.

Just have to hope this is going to be enough above decks now %%


Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2014, 02:11:49 PM »

 Well again itís been a week or so since an update. I had to re-evaluate how I was going to control the sails. I have gone for a loop system as per the drawing in post reply number 68.  I did intend a direct to servo system and in all honesty I wish I had stuck with it! The amount of change within the hull r/c control systems has been a royal pain in the butt. However I digress, this week I have managed to get the deck into place, p43 and p44. It looked good with no more complications, so out with the clamps and try to figure out how to clamp it into place while the glue dried p45. There has to be an easier way to do it, elastic bands were not strong enough to pull the deck into place along the sheer. If I had to do it again I think I would upturn the hull and place it on blocks of wood and then add some heavy weights along the length of the hull.
So it was left overnight for the glue to set yep itís on the dining table again, fortunately for me my wife was back in the UK for a few days again, so she will never know! Then back to my workbench to begin on the next stage- the deck level rubbing strake, the bulwarks and capping rail. Itís at this point I realised that several ringbolts p46, that should have been fastened with nuts through the deck are still in my parts box. Fortunately as they wonít be taking any strain Iíll have to settle with putting them in place with epoxy.
 
you may also notice on the portside a missing frame rail. At this section they are closer together to allow a removeable secion of bulwark that reveals a roller to allow the inhaul of the trawl net. So I have cut it off and will have to re-align it, a bit of dextrous cutting of spare coffee stirrer and I should be able to plug the hole in the deck.

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2014, 02:24:12 PM »

Well its saturday afternoon so its off down the local cafe bar to meet the other expats who live in the village. Its going to be midweek before any more updates, hopefully I'll get the pictures up and also maybe have the windlass completed.

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2014, 06:40:08 PM »

 So Iíve been a busy little bee, p47 is a shot along the length of the hull. Now in place are the bulwarks up to capping rail level. The tiller arm is in place as well, better shown in p50, you can see how this is controlled with the two lanyards entering the deck at each side. Fortunately my transmitter has a reversing function so that unlike the real boats pushing left would make the boat turn right, pushing the stick left will mean the model turns left.
In p48 can be seen the bulwarks and previously I had mentioned leaving them natural, however viewing it on the table from a distance it just doesnít look right against the green hull, so they are going to be green as well, inner bulwarks are going to be a buff colour. Also seen in place p48/p49 is the winch. I canít make up my mind about this, it looks too big for the space it occupies. However double-checking measurements it is the correct size, corroborated by the fact the jib does just fit in the bitts. If the winch was oversize the jib would obviously be too small a diameter to fit.
Also to be seen in these photoís are the fore hatch to what is referred to as the dill room and the main hatch where nets, trawl gear, cables etc were stored. Also the small diameter brass ring (yet to be painted) for the anchor chain to pass through.
 

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2014, 06:44:34 PM »

 You may notice that I donít have a particular order in which I complete jobs. To some this may be an unorganised way of working but it does work for me, if I get bored with one thing I move on to another for a while.
To this end p51 and p52 show the beginnings of the main mast. I have as I mentioned earlier in the topic gone for quarter round pine (not ramin) p53 is two of the quarters already glued together with aliphatic resin. These were held tightly by clamping them to the bench top and up against a straight edge shown in p54 and p55. In p53 you may have noticed the piece of piano wire in the centre. This is shown better in p56. Iím sure Iím not going to have strength problems with this mast, it has quite a large diameter for its short height. But from the beginning I had intended for there to be a piano wire rod up the centre to act as an antenna for the old 27mhz set I had. This is now out the window replaced with a 40ghz set but I have stayed with the wire up the centre, so p56 shows the wire epoxied into place in one half of the mast. The other half will have a fine coat of epoxy laid in the centre and then aliphatic resin on the timber before being clamped to the first half. The epoxy in the centre is to bind the wire to the wood and fill any voids, the aliphatic resin bonding the wood together. Essentially I will have a timber mast with a wire and epoxy core, if it wants to flex so be it, but it will be strong!
 

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2014, 06:48:39 PM »

 Finally in p57 a taster of what is to come soon. Double and single blocks and the deadeyes. The blocks are wood with working brass shieveís and as you can see they are small, a shame but only doubles and singles are available, I'm going to have to attempt to modify the doubles to make a couple of triples for my needs. They are not cheap at £0.60p each but the quality is second to none, available fromÖ..
 http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/1.html
They are priced on the website but the owner prefers an email with your requirements. He then sends you a return email with any up to date prices, send the cash by paypal and your order can be with you in two days!
 

Brian60

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Re: Humber smack circa 1880- build log
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2014, 09:57:52 AM »

 Today marks the seventh month of this build and by far the longest Iíve spent on any model Iíve built in my lifetime,  the hull is almost complete and the time is fast approaching for all the rigging to be started.
 This week Iíve completed the capping/hand rails shown pinned into place in p58 and p59. There has to be an easier way to do this than I came up with, Iíll outline my method: First of all I turned the hull upside down onto a length of paper, for my purposes this was 3 sheets of A4 taped together. I then traced a line around the hull leaving me with the bulwark top transferred to the paper then I places some greaseproof paper over that and pencilled the line on to the greaseproof, so far so good I taped the two together along the top edge so that the greaseproof could be lifted up. Then I cut lengths of mahogany strip wood that I had saved for just such a job. Laying them along the drawn line on the A4 paper I dropped the greaseproof over the top so that I could see the pieces through it. I chamfered the butt ends to get the correct fairing to follow the lines on the greaseproof.
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