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Author Topic: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.  (Read 92857 times)

derekwarner

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #175 on: June 02, 2014, 11:53:48 pm »

Those containments on the 1/4" brass bands are superb Jerry  :-)) ........ they also make my standard  'just bent over by 90° a 1/4" long tab, drilled them for 10 BA nuts and bolts look amateurish & pale in comparison .............Derek
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Derek Warner

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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #176 on: June 04, 2014, 05:30:32 pm »

Cut the burner pipe in half, cut 5/16" x 40 ME threads on each cut end then made up a pair of hex fittings and the pipe so that's the burner sorted.

Right then, started on the engine. First job, print out the instructions. No paper so down toTesco, buy a ream of paper. Start printing, after 13 pages printer ink runs out, b&w and colour. Back to Tesco. Buy 2 cartridges. £22. Set up the print run then off in the car to look for scrap to build engine out of.  We've only got two that deal in non ferrous. No joy but put me on to a machining business that makes scientific stuff, all CAD and stainless steel. Struck gold, help yourself any time. Wouldn't even let me buy him a pint. What's even better it's only 2minutes walk from the lake and I never even knew it was there. I got the aluminium plate off a friend. So got enough to build 2 engines and more.
Jerry.

ooyah/2

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #177 on: June 04, 2014, 05:36:57 pm »

Jerry,
If you fell into the lake you would come out with a salmon in your pocket.
George.
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pettyofficernick

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2014, 07:00:16 pm »

Looking forward to watching. I will have a nice shiny lathe soon, so I may follow you, and do one myself.....
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #179 on: June 07, 2014, 03:58:54 pm »

At the moment I don't have any suitable brass stock to make the cylinder blocks and the two pieces of s/a round I have are too large to fit in the milling vice. I may have some coming so decided to make the bearing block blanks first.
     The instructions say to make a couple of spares of each part in case any get spoiled in future operation so I am making twice as many and if I don't Horlicks any parts will build two engines.
      I began by cutting a round bar into manageable pieces in the lathe set at minimum speed and using a junior hacksaw. This method used for neatness as I'm crap with a hacksaw. I put each of thee pieces in the three jaw using a stop on the tail stock to set the required length befor tarting off slightly oversize. This way I got two pieces out of each length. I then faced off each piece to final length of 20mm.
        I shipped the milling attachment and dialled it in using a parallel gripped in the jaws, hard up against the vertical face to set the fixed jaw parallel to the bed and square to the spindle.
        Now I was ready to start milling. Shipped the Jacobs chuck on the spindle loaded with my largest cutter (6mm). Loaded one of the blanks in the centre of the vice jaws hard up against the vertical face and tightens the jaws. Using 2nd gear and high motor speed I cut a face until it was just a little over 10mm wide. With the saddle locked in this position I set up a saddle stop to allow me to repeat this operation without further measuring. The operation required several passes at increasing depths and is quite time consuming. After completing the first face I remove the piece from the vice and cleaned up all the swarf around and inside the jaws, before loading the next piece. I did this for every piece. The instructions warn that a single chip will throw the measurements out. I managed to cut all eight pieces. This is the "first datum face" 20mmx10mm. And is marked with red magic marker. Finally as stressed in the instructions I used a couple of strokes with the file to de-burr the edges. Failure to do this has the same effect as loose swarf.
         Today I started on the the "second datum face", 20mmx15mm. at right angles to the first. I put the piece in the milling vice with the first datum face to the fixed jaw and milled the second face until it reached the first face then set up the saddle stop. The second face I marked with blue magic marker. After de-burring I used an angle plate to check the two faces and the round end were all square then repeated this process with the remaining seven pieces without further measurement. This second cut removes a lot more metal than the first and I found I could only do three pieces before the motor got too hot to continue. It needed two hours to cool. Thank God for GP practice and qualifying. NW200 was good too. Just the Lightweight TT tonight and I will be half way to eight bearing block blanks.
Jerry.

BarryM

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #180 on: June 07, 2014, 06:16:31 pm »

Jerry,
"At the moment I don't have any suitable brass stock to make the cylinder blocks." The original design used scrap cast iron for the cylinder block. Was it a matter of availability of material or something else that changed you mind to use brass?

Regards,
Barry M
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #181 on: June 07, 2014, 06:49:39 pm »

Hi Barry, instructions say you can use anything except aluminium. I chose brass to avoid any possible corrosion problems. My TVR1A is brass and I take no precautions between runs and over winter layup. No other reason though. I haven't got any cast iron either. I'm led to believe it machines easily. Only experience I have is reboring Triumph cylinder barrels and had no problems with them.
Jerry.

BarryM

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #182 on: June 07, 2014, 07:44:49 pm »

Jerry,
Aye, I made my version of Bogstandard's engine from a handy bit of cast iron with no machining problems but, as you say, brass eliminates the corrosion possibility.
The most awkward bit I found was getting the crankshaft components lined up, for which a third hand comes in useful. Good luck!
Barry M
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #183 on: June 07, 2014, 08:40:53 pm »

Barry, a question. There's a fair bit of meat in the cylinder block. Do you know of any reason not to increase the bore dimensions to 12mm?
Jerry.

BarryM

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #184 on: June 07, 2014, 10:50:07 pm »

Jerry,

I think you should be OK but I will have a look at my engine to see if it would throw up any problems. You could also try contacting John Bogstandard via the Paddleducks Forum if he still posts there. I have an email address for him but I'm not sure if it is still current. I did find him very helpful during my build. (PM me if you want to try this route.)

I'll get back to you.   
Barry M
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BarryM

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2014, 08:50:14 am »

Jerry,
Bogstandard writes that he chose the 10 x 20 route because it was used for a previous engine and permitted him to use some parts of its design. As long as you remember to steer clear of the steam ports when drilling for the cover securing studs, I don't see why you could not increase the bore to 12mm.
Regards,
Barry M
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #186 on: June 08, 2014, 09:30:08 am »

Barry, so kind, much obliged to you. The only problem I can see would be top cover and bottom cover/ gland studs and valve chests studs. I'll have a good look through the instructions to confirm. The only problem I'm having is my head and my lathe are imperial and the engine is metric. Intend keeping the build metric where possible and using imperial if it means I have to buy new taps and dies. Thank god for digital calipers! The metric/imperial button makes a huge contribution.
Thanks for watching.
Jerry.

AlexC

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #187 on: June 08, 2014, 11:21:41 am »

Hi Jerry,
I am very familiar with John's engine since I designed the valve gear for it.
 
Be careful, if you increase the bore to 12mm you will need to increase the diameter of the top and bottom covers or you will have very little room for the cover fixing screws.
The standard covers have a 4mm wide land with 2.2mm holes for the screws... a 12mm bore will reduce the land size to 3mm... this would give you about 0.015" clearance on the mounting screws, after you increase the PCD of the fixing screws... I.E. not enough... so the covers would need to increase in outside dia by at least 1.5mm, better with an extra 2mm.
 
This presents several problems.
 
1. The covers would overhang the cylinder block, which is 18mm wide.
 
2. The extra diameter will give you problems with the entabulature plate... where the clearance holes for the bottom cover will again be larger in dia then the cylinder block and the additional diameter will mean that you will need to re-locate the 6 x cylinder block mounting screws... these will need careful re-location or you could run into problems with the valve chest fixing screws... they are already pretty close to each other.
 
If you really want to increase the bore then I would suggest you make the cylinder block 20mm wide rather than 18mm and increase the width of the valve chests to suit, which will give you a little more room for adjustment and will eliminate the overhang of the top and bottom covers.
 
If you are going to use BRASS for the cylinder block, then I would suggest you use Stainless Steel for the pistons... don't use Brass or you will end up with Galling.
 
Why are you considering increasing the Bore size?
 
I wish you every success with the build, it is a great engine.
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC aka Sandy. :-)) :}
 
EDIT... if you wish to use imperial measurements where possible... you could increase the bore to 7/16" with little issue other than minor PCD change on the cover screws.
 
You can substitute 8BA for 2mm screws and 6BA for 3mm screws, both are available with one size smaller Hex Heads, which look much nicer.
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BarryM

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #188 on: June 08, 2014, 12:21:33 pm »

Jerry,
As soon as I pressed 'Post', I wondered if I should have included 'errors and omissions excepted' in it somewhere and I bow to obviously superior knowledge.
As far as measuring systems are concerned, I machined in metric but threaded in BA as I did not have small metric taps at the time and this solved the problem. I also added a few tweaks such as oil cups on the main bearings.
To insulate the block, I made a dummy cover complete with dummy cylinder/valve covers which was lined with ceramic insulating material and ended up with this. The steam pipes had still to be insulated at the time of the photo and the drain plug in the oiler is to be changed for a drain cock.

Barry M


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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #189 on: June 08, 2014, 06:08:47 pm »

Sandy and Barry, great input guys, food for thought. Reason for increased bore, I've got a lot of steam and a proper superheater not a drier. However unlike I/C I have no idea about the relationship between bore and stroke as it applies to steam engines. The bogstandard has a smaller bore than the TVR1A but a larger stroke. I guessed that if I made the bore similar that I would be able to swing a larger prop with more pitch. I may be wrong though.
     I agree about making the piston out of s/steel. Expansion coefficient of my s/s is less than the brass cylinder so see no probs there. I do have some phosphor bronze which I believe is more compatible. Will experiment with both. Thanks for the tip about switching to BA threads.  I have all the kit for that and today I kind friend at the lake gave me a whole load f BA set screws. Lovely engine Barry, the wooden jacket really sets it off.
       I might not get much done this week as I've got to get our bikes ready for the Etape Eryri next Sunday, 47miles with three stiff climbs. Should be a great event with over a thousand entrants. The next week may be in recovery mode.
Jerry.

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #190 on: June 08, 2014, 10:23:40 pm »

Jerry C posted: -
Quote

 Reason for increased bore, I've got a lot of steam and a proper superheater not a drier. However unlike I/C I have no idea about the relationship between bore and stroke as it applies to steam engines. The bogstandard has a smaller bore than the TVR1A but a larger stroke. I guessed that if I made the bore similar that I would be able to swing a larger prop with more pitch.

Hi Jerry,
 
The torque produced is a function of force x radius (force being working pressure x piston area and Radius being half the stroke), therefore a longer stroke engine will produce more torque than an engine having the same bore but shorter stroke at the same working pressure.
The shorter stroke engine will have the higher speed(rpm) band.
For driving a large prop the slower long stroke engine will be the best solution.

Increasing the working pressure will have the same effect as increasing the bore whilst keeping the stroke the same... providing the boiler can deliver the steam required at the increased pressure.
 
A stroke of 2 x bore is probably about as High as is generally feasible for small model engines... any higher and condensation losses begin to have a huge effect... unlike full size, where stroke can be 4 or 5 times the bore... as with Mississippi sternwheelers, however, these generally used wet steam at relatively low pressure and relied on the wet steam for lubrication... you can't get away with this using superheated steam.
 
Go easy on using super heat...
 
1, displacement lubricators don't work very well with even mild superheated steam.

2, Brass and Bronze are more prone to galling at the higher temperatures... especially if the lubricator is compromised.

Superheating is completely unnecessary for this type of engine as it is effectively a non expansion design... the piston valve does not have any lap and is designed to allow simple reversing by swapping the inlet an exhaust pipes, in the same way as an oscillating engine... a mild steam drying would be more than adequate.
 
To make use of steam expansion you need to cutoff the steam input at part stroke, say 55% or less, and allow the steam to expand for the remainder of the stroke... but, even this would not be the best use of superheated steam if both cylinders were the same dimensions.
Superheating only comes into it's own when used with a double, triple or quadruple expansion engine having early cutoff at say 45%, and with the exhaust from each cylinder passing to the input of the next, with the final cylinder exhausting into a partial vacuum... usually combined with a true condenser.
 
I would not recommend using superheated steam with this engine... it serves no real purpose and can compromise lubrication... it will also increase the wear factor of your piston o-rings.

If you must use superheat, make it mild, and even then a good mechanical injection lubricator would be a better, and Safer, solution... as used on model steam locomotives and traction engines.
 
Have a good bike race and enjoy the outdoor exercises.
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC aka Sandy. :-)) :}
 
 
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AlexC

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #191 on: June 08, 2014, 10:37:03 pm »

Hi Barry,
 
A very nice example of Bog's engine... I particularly like the cylinder cladding and the dummy cylinder and valve covers... gives it an air of reality. :-))
 
Well done.
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC aka Sandy. :}
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #192 on: June 09, 2014, 12:55:01 am »

Sandy, that's all very clear and understood. Will leave the superheater coils out of the circuit and save it for another engine maybe a compound. I'll make the pistons out of stainless steel. Thanks for the advice.
Jerry.

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #193 on: June 11, 2014, 08:29:23 pm »

Right, I've decided to make no changes to bore size and will keep it at 10mm. 
I carried on and finally after 4 days and various interruptions completed the blanks for the bearing blocks for two engines. I numbered the first set 1-4 with centre punch and second set with 1-4 with number punch set. The colours red blue and black are datum faces from which all measurements will made and guide me in positioning pieces in the milling vice.
Jerry.

Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #194 on: June 12, 2014, 11:27:22 pm »

Now I'm going to drill/ream the 5mm crankshaft holes in the bearing blocks. Look at the photo, a block is in the vice roughly central. The first datum face is sitting on the fixed jaw. The second datum face is sitting on the vertical base of the vice and the third datum face is lying against the top jaw of a clamp on the fixed jaw of the vice. To find the centre of the hole I put a broken 1/4" straight shank milling tool in the chuck with the non tool end sticking out. I brought the third datum face using the cross slide and the milling slide I rested the tool on the datum face then zeroed the top slide wheel graduations(imperial). I moved the milling attachment clear of the tool. I then turned the cross slide wheel 2 1/2 times so moving the work 1/8" or 0.125".  Now the axis of the chuck is in line with the datum side of the bearing block. I set 10mm on the digital calipers then pressed the mm/thou button to convert to thou.  This figure is the amount I must further move the cross slide to get the chuck axis Central to the block. Once in position I locked the top slide. I found the height of the hole(8mm) using a similar method then locked the vertical slide.  I swapped the tool for a centre drill and started the hole.  Swapped the centre drill for a 4.5mm drill and drilled the hole.  I'm not sure how close to 5mm I should drill the hole before reaming so when the reamer arrives tomorrow I will use a number drill just under 5mm diameter then ream the hole. If this is successful it is now a simple matter to remove the piece, deburr the hole, clean the vice thoroughly  and place the next block in the vise without further measuring and centre drilling, drilling and reaming.  All the pieces will be the same.  The position of the oil cups and feed hole are not critical so just rotating the pieces 90° in the vice and findin the new vertical position will allow all the oil cups to be quickly drilled. Rotate them 180° and find the centres of the holding down screws and drilling them will only leave a bit of shaping for visual appeal and turning small shallow bosses around the crankshaft holes on each side of the blocks to reduce friction. Finally a small chamfer in the mounting holes will ensure each block sits fair on the base plate with all holes in line.  Famous last words !! Well we'll see how I get on.

I locked the slides because I noticed one of the wheels turning merrily away powered by the vibrations of milling.  Fortunately I was only practicing at the time but it's worth noting with the Taig lathe. I also marked the graduations with magic marker so I can see at a glance if any things moved.
Jerry.

Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #195 on: June 14, 2014, 11:39:30 am »

Still awaiting tools so made this. It's courtesy of Tubalcain and holds and dispenses cutting fluid or what have you. Cut hole in base of salmon/tuna can. Apply magnet on a stick to remove any filings. Remove salmon/tuna with improvised scoop.  Clean out the can. Solder copper tube halfway to bottom of can.  Put slightly less than 1/2 a can of oil.  Dispense with paint brush. If you knock it over or it falls off bench or drill stand it won't spill.  Simples.
Make salmon/tuna sandwich and give it to the wife.  She'll never know. 
Jerry.

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #196 on: June 14, 2014, 04:00:24 pm »

Hi Jerry just a little tip face off your columns and countersink so they sit dead flat on the base and cylinder surround ;)
Cheers
John
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #197 on: June 20, 2014, 08:40:15 pm »

Over the past few days been busy with other things. Etape Eryri Bach completed. It was an absolute swine. Three vicious climbs which I walked up most of. 47 miles, elapsed time 5 hours dead, moving time 4hrs 34mins. Not threatening Sir Bradley but heyho. We all finished that's the main thing.  Thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience. Next is Tour de Môn Canol 76 miles in August. 
      Today I finished off 2 sets of bearing blocks. I used a 1/4" end mill to cut a quadrant out of the shoulders of each block using another stop to enable quick change over without measuring, slides locked throughout, before turning a 6thou boss on each face.  See how in pic. I will dress them on the dressing plate when I have turned the material for the crankshaft journals.
       Made two baseplates out of scrap 1/8" aluminium plate kindly donated by John at the lake. I marked out the outside dimensions and rough cut them on the scroll saw using ordinary wood cutting blade.  Tidied them up on sander before dressing on the plate.  I marked the centreline datum, stuck both together with double sided tape and mounted them in the milling vise using a parallel to protect vice. All measurements done on the slides.  Converted mm to inches first.  The range of the slides means I couldn't do it all in one go so when I'd drilled the last hole before the limit I reversed the drill in the chuck with a short length sticking out.  I put the stub of the drill back in the hole, slacked off the vise then wound the cross slide to the other end, clamped the pieces back in the vice and continued. I Nick, I'm sure dolls house gear is an ok scale for A Q. Last pic shows my bypass overboard discharge skin fitting. Sea suction is similar.  That pipe looks a bit vulnerable as it is. Epoxy a brass washer over it and crop it off.
Jerry.  using a #34 drill for 6BA. Again the range of the vertical slide prevented me drilling the other side so I reversed one plate, bolted them together via the bearing block hole then drilled the remaining holes through the previous holes on the drill stand
        Finally mounted the blocks and the 5mm reamer goes through ok. 
Jerry.
   

pettyofficernick

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #198 on: June 20, 2014, 09:36:26 pm »

Hi Jerry, nice work so far, I will be starting my Alpha soon, much bigger than yours, bus less complicated. You seem to have a bit of mixed threads, part of your post on my AQ build has appeared in this thread, the wee sprites in your computer have got a little mixed up perhaps....
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Jerry C

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Re: Jerry C does some turning & milling and builds a new steam plant.
« Reply #199 on: June 20, 2014, 09:51:13 pm »

No idea how that happened Nick.  What's an Alpha?
Jerry.
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