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Author Topic: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?  (Read 6744 times)

Ramon

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Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« on: April 02, 2014, 12:48:44 pm »


Hi - Its been quite a time since posting about early the experiences with the Focus yachts  http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41175.0.html but we still have them and continue to sail regularly with the guys at the Norwich club. The Focus's have now been joined by Nylet Thetis one metres and and two 'pre used' Marbleheads so we are just as keen if not more so since starting out on this relaxing but challenging hobby - that learning curve, though perhaps not so steep, still in front of us

Recently an opportunity presented itself to purchase what was considered an 'A Rater'. Beautifully made sometime back by someone now deceased and named 'Cheval Blanc' it's previous owner does not know what the original design is.




Quite by chance last night I noticed in the plans section in the back of the Chris Jackson 'Racing Sailing' book a small pic of the Orca 11 RA first published in Marine Modelling in April/May 1991 which appears to have distinct similarities - the winged keel and quite wide beam to length ratio. Our models overall length is about 65"


]It's very graceful on the water but it's not been purchased to race just to look after and enjoy. If anyone can shed any light as to whether it is an Orca 11 or any other design we would be most pleased to hear.
Many thanks - Ramon (and Sue)

PS I've had a bit of a problem here with the type face changing size - anyone know what causes this - I can't seem to get anything consistent.
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hmsantrim

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 04:01:24 pm »

Hi ramon.
        If you hull LOA  is 65in its more likely to be a 6 meter class. 
 http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/mmi-aclass.html#aMAR2335
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/mar2395.html
frank
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 06:02:53 pm »

Thanks Frank - yes I would agree that it is a bit short for the average A Rater OA hence my query really but the pic of the Orca does look so similar to it. I shall have to try to get hold of the article - we have a lot of MM and MB mags on file at the clubhouse - hopefully it will be in them if the year is on file.


Thanks - Ramon
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hmsantrim

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 08:29:12 pm »

Hi ramon.
 Deffo a 6 Meter  the full size one has the same sail letter and also the model ones. if it was registered for racing with the mya they could tell you what the design is or possibly here by quoting the sail number  http://www.mya-uk-forum.org.uk/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=28
 http://www.woodstockboats.com/Woodstock_NadaBrochure2006.pdf
http://dabblers.wikispaces.com/Six+Metre+page+1
  Frank
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 10:36:44 pm »



Hi Frank - I assume from that that the 'K' denotes a Six Metre yacht.

There is no evidence of any number inside the hull showing this has been registered so I don't think that's going to be a help - the sail number could just be a 'club number'.

The member we bought this off is a long time builder of yachts and was a close friend  of the builder. He has referred to it at all times as an A Rater
. That's not to infer you are on the wrong track - on the contrary I have a very open mind on this at this stage and welcome any thoughts on the matter but when I look at the images of Six Metres in your link this boat just doesn't sit in the water in the same fashion. Again that's not an indication you are wrong just an observation. I do take on board what you are saying however but at this stage something's 'nagging' so I am not as yet totally convinced either way - it will be interesting to see what transpires.

As said we have no intention of racing it seriously but just for personal satisfaction what I'd really like to do is pin down the actual design .

Thank you again for your interest. If I can come up with the magazine at the weekend that will be a big help - if nothing else but to eliminate the possibility but the more I look at that one picture of the 'Orca 11' the more the boat looks identical in shape - just not necessarily the same dimensions!

Regards - Ramon
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Keith Bell

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 11:37:01 pm »

Hi Ramon

The K as a prefix was a national identifier for racing boats since replaced by GBR

Regards
Keith
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 08:08:35 am »

Thanks Keith - any idea when the change from K to GBR took place?


I notice from the description on the Orca 11 plan description it can be built with varying waterline length / sail area to sit types of sailing water conditions. It gives the lengths as 48 to 54" which seems to me to be possibly a bit short for the usual average  A rater OA lengths.


Sorry to bang on about this Orca design but as it is displayed in the image it looks so similar right down to the carrying handle method!


I'll see if I can get some better pics of it out of the water and some true dimensions - that might help a bit more.


Regards - Ramon
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Netleyned

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 08:09:29 am »

As already stated, The K denotes UK with it's registered number

The Small A is the insignia for an A rater.
I would say it is an A rater.

The A is a development class and the waterline length /sail area can vary considerably.
Don't confuse waterline length with Length overall.
A 54 inch waterline length would give an LOA of 65 inches or more as there can be
quite an appreciable overhang both fore and aft.


Ned
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 09:58:45 am »

Hi Ned - thanks for your input.


I'm not confusing water line with OA length - this is what leads me to not being totally convinced this is not, as claimed, an A Rater. The person I bought it off is very experienced with model yachts but he just can't remember the design.


I understand (to a minor extent!) the varying water line lengths/sail area depending on the chosen layout required - it's just that the boat does seem a little on the short side (OA) to most A- Raters.  That's one of the reasons why I'd like to pin down the actual design the other is just to know  %)


It has a painted waterline - whether that's a true indicator or not remains to be seen but I'll measure it all up later.


Thanks again Ramon



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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 11:00:52 am »

Further to the last post I've just checked it over..


65" from bumper to stern
13-1/2" beam
Waterline as painted 49"

Here are a couple more pics which may help













I have also just noted on one side of the sail a small 'A'  %)  which as I look at it now appears in the image in the first post  %) %)
So on the basis that it is an A Rater that still begs the question which design  %%


Thanks for the input so far Ned, Frank and Keith - I'm sure the answer will be found at some stage


Regards - Ramon







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yachty

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2014, 11:35:29 am »

The change from K to GBR happened in 1993 with the next release of Racing Rules of Sailing I guess radio sailing changed at the same time.

I suspect your boat is an A Class but it is hard from the pictures to tell the scale the higher aspect ratio rig is a clew to this. They are certainly an old A Class suit of sails with the K added as an afterthought.

Some questions
+ have you looked inside or a faded part of the deck with a sail number as if it is measured the MYA will be able to tell you what it is.
+ Are there any signs that it has been measured like floatation marks or deck limit marks?
+ Also what is the height of the mast above the deck as all A Class are near the maximum allowed by the rules which is much more than any 6
+ How heavy is it!
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2014, 07:37:16 pm »

'Yachty' - assuming they are the original sails which I believe they are then that helps predate it some at least.I have checked the hull (again) but there is no sign of any registration either above or below that I can find, likewise there are no flotation or deck marks.

The mast measures 85" from top to deck level but I have no idea of the weight at present..

Thanks for your interest in this so far - the riddle will be solved eventually no doubt

Regards - Ramon
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mrpenguin

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2014, 10:42:43 pm »

It looks like an A Class to me.

They are formula based so they can vary quite a bit in size....

For those of us a bit more metric:
Length =  65 inches = 1651 mm
Beam = 13.5 inches = 343 mm
Mast height = 84 inches = 2159mm
Waterline = 49 inches = 1245
I am guessing it should weigh 12 to 15 kg (26 to 33 pounds) in sailing trim

More guidance on measurement of an A Class here:
http://www.radiosailing.org.au/2013arya/index.php/home/2012-05-15-15-38-41

For comparison, my A Class (Sidewinder) weighs 15.1 kg, mast is 2040mm tall, waterline length 1300mm, foot of mainsail 490mm, foot of jib 515mm, height of fore triangle 1600mm
Measurement form for my boat is attached. The formula should calculate as close to 1000 as possible.




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yachty

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 10:47:08 pm »

Its an A Class as the maximum rig height above deck for an A-Class 2167mm and your is close to that at 2159 mm guessing you measured the same way. For a 6 metre the maximum is 1806 mm so it is to big and and as I said the boom is to short for a 6 metre. I hope you get some more info the keel is quite an interesting design very different to either of my A-Class yachts. They are the nicest of all the class to sail enjoy the boat it looks very well made.

A Class rule are here http://www.radiosailing.org/main/documents/a.htm
6 metre Rules are here  http://www.mya-uk.org.uk/6m/6-1stmaster%20front%20page.html
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mrpenguin

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2014, 10:57:43 pm »

.... I hope you get some more info the keel is quite an interesting design very different to either of my A-Class yachts.

A few of my local sailing buddies have a keel shaped much like this. Not sure there is much gain with the shape.... but looks "techy"
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2014, 11:21:24 pm »

Thanks Mr P and 'Yachty' for this further info and the links.


With the concensus that it is now an A rater I'm itching to see whats in the archive of mags at the club on Saturday.


I'm not in a position to weigh it accurately at the moment but will try at some stage.


The boat will probably only come out a few times through the season mainly due to lack of space with the other boats in the car - it was bought very much for it's looks and we both feel very privileged to be it's current 'guardians'. It will be well looked after, hopefully for many a year, trouble is my wife loves sailing it so it looks like I won't get much time on her.


Last Saturday we had an open day - we have another A rater in the group but much longer and narrower which showed a much better turn of speed in the light breeze we had. We had a few two lap 'races' together the other boat winning each time but boy they did look good on the water.


Thanks everyone for your interest - I'll let you know if I find out more


Regards - Ramon
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2014, 08:17:45 am »

Hi guy's just to say that it is without doubt an 'Orca ll' as  featured in MM in 1991.


Prior to seeing the magazine I had received an email from a Robert Hobbs whom 'Yachty' put me in contact. His opinion (Robert's) was that it was a Bob stern design and probably the Orca. Perusal of the article confirmed it.


The boat could be built to differing waterline lengths by increasing the space between the shadows in order to give a hull that would suit varying water/wind conditions. That drawn is the version now owned - overall length 65" with a LWL of 50" - my measurement was somewhat cursory, not exact.


Following further discussion with the seller he remembered he has the plan :-)  but I don't think I'll be building another  ok2


Thank you all for your interest - right or wrong it was all much appreciated.


Regards - Ramon
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mrpenguin

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2014, 01:56:17 am »

Thanks for the feedback Ramon!!!
Nice to know there is an answer and the boat is identified.....

So, time to go sailing????
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MikeK

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2014, 07:52:20 am »

Hi Ramon, I'm just back from holiday and catching up with Mayhem. Robert Hobbs is an expert on these things and an honoured fellow member of my club (just in case he's reading this ! %) )
I would also say it was an Orca as I built one when I joined the club but it was not to a good enough standard to bother getting it measured ! That includes both my own building skills and the design as a whole being left far behind by the new state of the art boats. I still sail her however just for the sheer pleasure of just watching her movement on the water. The design is quite old I believe, from Canada and the drawings were with the option of either of 3 lengths.
Sorry I haven't got a pic of mine to hand but it looks very similar to yours - but not to such a good standard, he said enviously  >:-o

Mike
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Ramon

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 08:22:10 am »

You're welcome Mr P - your input is always appreciated.
Mike - thanks for yours too. Though there is one other A Rater in the club there is no intention to race her either at the club or elsewhere. It's been brought to club open days when the previous owner would thrust the tranny into Sue's hands and say there you go - go and sail her  :-)


A stalwart of the club for many years I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I said he is reaching that age when it's time to scale things down a tad. I remarked if he ever decided to part with it could we have first refusal - the rest as they say ....


I'm sure you would agree that though no longer competitive it does have a great presence on the water and hopefully we shall be around to treasure it for many years to come. Though well made originally I feel the deck could do with replacing so that is something that will get tackled in due course. Getting to the inside as it is now is also impossible so that really needs improving too.


Thanks again everyone - this yacht will bring us an inordinate amount of pleasure  :-)

Regards - Ramon
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MikeK

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Re: Is this an Orca 11 RA ?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 10:56:13 am »

Hi again, thought there was a pic somewhere ! Found it on the laptop. this is mine near completion. Obviously different ballast shape - I won this lead ballast in a club raffle then performed serious surgery on it ! But the hull shape is definitely similar

Regards

Mike
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