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Author Topic: South Korean Ferry Sinking  (Read 6085 times)

AlexC

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South Korean Ferry Sinking
« on: April 17, 2014, 02:49:38 pm »

Hi All,
 
Just been reading a report on the above sad situation and was somewhat surprised at the following comment: -
 
Quote

Mr Oh, a helmsmen on the ferry with 10 years' shipping experience, said that when the crew gathered on the bridge and sent a distress call the ship was already listing more than five degrees, the critical angle at which the ship can be brought back to even keel.

This seems a very small list angle capability for such a ship... I would have thought that a 5deg angle of list could very easily be exceeded in a moderatly rough sea... what do you make of this?
 
Whole article here: -
 
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/ferry-evacuation-order-delayed
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC. :-))
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cos918

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2014, 05:42:10 pm »

This is a very sad situation.
My question is. This boat sank slowly not like the Herald which snap rolled. Why oh why do they wait before they start to evacuate people in the life boats. Case in point Costa concordia NO one should have died on that ship.

john
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BarryM

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 08:44:53 am »

I couldn't understand the reference to 5 degrees either but then the BBC and such-like are not known for nautical expertise. There will be an angle at which unsecured vehicles start to slide unless tethered and cause a list but even that, I would have thought, would have been greater than 5 deg. However, as I never served on ferries, perhaps somebody with the experience will comment. Certainly 5 deg. would normally be no problem for a seaworthy vessel which should be capable of recovery from much greater angles. If it was, ships would never go to sea in anything but a flat calm. As some used to say, "When your mattress falls off your bunk, that's the time to worry".

This morning the BBC is saying that the 3rd Mate was "at the helm" at the time the ship got into trouble as if this is somehow out of the ordinary and conjuring up images of some great wheel which he was tending. If the vessel was running a normal watch system then there is nothing unusual in the 3rd being in charge.

As always, the media speculates on causes of incidents without engaging its corporate brain and as its masters demand news, reporters will start clutching at straws. Far better if they all said "We don't know" and wait until those who do, have figured out the causes.

Why was evacuation delayed? Probably because evacuation plans are created around the idea of maximum control reducing the possibility of panic in a large body of untrained personnel unfamiliar with shipping.  Thus, people are marshalled for an orderly evacuation. Unfortunately this plan is too inflexible in some cases. Remember that when Piper Alpha went up, large numbers of well-trained personnel were still following the evacuation plan and gathering in the accommodation module mess room. They died. By and large, the ones who survived were those who recognised that the situation was beyond control and took independent action.

Barry M
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regiment

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2014, 12:41:41 pm »

  makes yer fink  about the big cruise ships seem top heavy to me  .
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inertia

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2014, 07:11:33 pm »

  makes yer fink  about the big cruise ships seem top heavy to me  .
There's a lot of them around, Gordon, but as far as I know only one has capsized to date - and that had nowt to do with being top-heavy.
My thanks to BarryM for answering already the questions I had when I logged on this morning.
DM
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meechingman

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2014, 07:12:39 pm »

I've crossed the channel in car ferries in really rough weather and they rolled substantially more than 5 degrees!


Usual story - BBC getting technical details wrong and reporting them without checking.
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BarryM

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2014, 08:37:45 am »

The BBC has form in that regard going way back. The QE2 had turbine problems on its first sea trials caused by operation within the synchronous frequencies. The BBC dug out some ex-master of the Queen Mary (not a marine engineer) and asked him to speculate on what had gone wrong. To his credit, the master looked extremely uncomfortable but came out with "It may have been a boiler explosion". The collective howl of marine engineers' derision probably registered on the Richter scale.

Have you noticed that coverage of the missing airliner has slid off the broadcasts? Reporters no longer have anything they can point a camera at and so it is no longer news.

Barry M
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NFMike

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2014, 09:20:49 am »

Have you noticed that coverage of the missing airliner has slid off the broadcasts? Reporters no longer have anything they can point a camera at and so it is no longer news.

Barry M

There is actually an item on BBC news today about it - but it contains a blooper:
It is searching in an area defined by four acoustic signals picked up by an Australian search team, and was deployed after officials concluded that the batteries on the plane's flight recorders would likely have expired, given their one-month shelf life.

A reasonably sentient consumer should know what shelf life is, it's not really a technical term.

warspite

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2014, 11:27:21 am »

Due to yesterdays updates my post went awol, someone I know who thinks he is funny sent me a text that the ferry probably hit the MH370, was not impressed to say the least.
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McGherkin

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2014, 02:34:25 pm »

It does concern me these days that larger cruise ships rely increasingly on stabiliser fins and high-speed ballast transfers to remain stable. A complete power failure can potentially leave such a ship very vulnerable.

However the ship in this incident doesn't look like it's that bad, although it's carrying vehicles so there is a potential huge free surface effect there.

I don't think we'll know the answer just yet and it would be unwise to speculate until we know a bit more.
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regiment

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2014, 02:44:48 pm »

watched quest last night 10 greatest ships uss Nimitz's  seems to be more out of the water than in
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dodes

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2014, 08:42:57 pm »

RT seemed to have some more info this morning, they were going on about an inexperienced female 3rd mate who put to much helm on and there was a mention of badly secured cargo and also like the Italian job the master was first of the vessel. Also all the life rafts were still secured when she went and she had also deviated from her planned course!!!
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CGAux26

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2014, 10:20:07 pm »

Saw one article about this ferry that said a bunch of "rooms" had been added just a few years ago.  Can I extrapolate that to say the center of gravity was raised?  That would cut the stability, too.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2014, 10:31:04 pm »

Just lots of speculation, Best to wait until some facts become available.

In the meantime the only thing certain is that there is a hulk full of dead children which is a dreadful thing.

Colin
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MikeK

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2014, 09:21:13 am »

It will be interesting if any stability figures were calculated on departure. If she was indeed very 'tender' and a violent helm was applied she could have gone over just enough to start things shifting. It mentions that the third mate was inexperienced and those with bridge experience will know what happens if the 'Iron Mike' is 'wanged' over to the new heading on a large course alteration, instead of altering in steps. The machine applies full helm immediately and only starts decreasing this helm as it nears the new heading, even on a ship with plenty of stability, she will lean over a bit into the turn.
Regardless of the armchair pondering and conjecture, a truly tragic accident to those innocent children and crew

Mike
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dodes

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 04:25:05 pm »

Talking to some one from the investigation branch the other Mike and the first comment is GM problem, plus loose cargo and possibly free surface action. But as said to me when they get the recording boxes back from the wreck might get to the truth. Though I am wondering what will happen to the owners under the IMS regs!!! But those poor kids, they did not in a million years deserve such a terrifying death, if there is a lord above I hope he took pity on their souls.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 05:47:35 pm »


Amen to that.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 08:34:15 am »

 
BBC  - "The vessel was carrying three times its recommended maximum cargo weight."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27224998
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BarryM

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 10:46:52 am »

More allegations of incompetence and putting profit before safety? http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/sunk-south-korean-ferry-was-routinely-overloaded-1-3398699

Barry M
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slug

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 09:12:06 am »

so so sad that profit comes before safety,reports say that the ferry made $2.9million from overloading since march,13.not a bad profit...but at what cost???? i wonder how much this goes on in the world,water ballast for cargo,still sitting on plimsol line....tony
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Colin Bishop

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 10:14:37 am »

Quote
i wonder how much this goes on in the world

Very common I think, judging by the reports on ships detained by the MCA.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2014, 12:54:49 pm »

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Bryan Young

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2014, 09:06:48 pm »

The notion (idea) of adding extra decks/accommodation to a second hand ferry isn't all that unusual.
This is most blatantly seen at port Tewfik at the southern end of the Suez Canal.
many of the "ferries" are ex-UK cross channel ships. Almost unidentifiable because of the newly added top-hamper.
Simply pile in the poor pilgrims en-route to Mecca and away they go.
Almost every year we read about such vessels being "lost" with a great death toll.
This one (in Korea) is no different.
Lax legislation and non-existent survey work kills people.
Who cares? Not the people who should be caring, that's for sure.
     So be grateful that in the UK we just don't allow such cowboy operators to ply their trade. BY.
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seathug

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 12:02:25 am »

Saw one article about this ferry that said a bunch of "rooms" had been added just a few years ago.  Can I extrapolate that to say the center of gravity was raised?  That would cut the stability, too.

I think I have rad  some similar news about them modyfying this boat
It was bought from a japanese company of something like and when they got it they modified it
And not supposed to have a heavy cargo but they were off the limit
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deadwood

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Re: South Korean Ferry Sinking
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 12:49:58 pm »

Hi All,
 
Just been reading a report on the above sad situation and was somewhat surprised at the following comment: -
Quote
Mr Oh, a helmsmen on the ferry with 10 years' shipping experience, said that when the crew gathered on the bridge and sent a distress call the ship was already listing more than five degrees, the critical angle at which the ship can be brought back to even keel.
 
This seems a very small list angle capability for such a ship... I would have thought that a 5deg angle of list could very easily be exceeded in a moderatly rough sea... what do you make of this?
 
Whole article here: -
 
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/ferry-evacuation-order-delayed
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC. :-))

This must have been quoted incorrectly or be based on a misconception.

I presume what rather was meant was that the vessel listed 5 degrees beyond the angle of vanishing stability (aka capsizing angle).

To asses a vessel's stability you require its lever arm (i.e. righting lever or GZ) curve (see the drawing in above link) which is based on the hydrostatic particulars at given draught and trim
as well as on the total vertical centre of gravity (i.e. KG) resulting from the current loading case.

This information is contained in the vessel's stability book either printed, or today digitally from a stability software, which  is required to be accessible on board.
The nautical officers are required to check against this data for sufficient stability for the prevalent loading condition prior to departure,
which also encompasses any variations of the centre of gravity that could be anticipated due to vanishing consumables (e.g. End of Voyage Loading Case),
and which also has to take tank fillings (e.g. Free Surface Effect) into account.

As mostly is the case with such tragic disasters, there must have been a concatenation of circumstances which led to sinking.
However, the ship operators, ship officers and safety enforcing authorities must have contributed in severely failing.

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