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Author Topic: HMS Illustrious 87  (Read 109294 times)

John W E

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2015, 05:44:15 PM »

hi ya Paul, as you say there is no correct way to building a hull - just your own way and the way you are happy - however, what I have found personally in the past, when I have built a hull in the same way you have, with the keel down you tend to get a lot more twists in the framework of the hull - as the frames aren't truly secured to a building board.  But, I suppose, if you put the flight deck on first (temporarily) securing all of the frames this will hold them all in place rigidly whilst you plank.   The thing is though, make sure you plank evenly, from side to side as if you don't do this, this tends to create uneven stresses in the hull - and this tends to distort the hull as well.   The way around this is on this Aircraft Carrier hull (as no doubt you will have thought about this) is to put large ply panels in where the armour belting goes on this hull.   This should stiffen all of the frames up prior to planking.

hope this makes sense and hope I am not coming across as trying to tell you how to make your model - its just thoughts.  :-)

aye
john
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2015, 05:58:20 PM »

No John all advice is welcome as this is my first attempt at doing a plank on frame hull.  I hope to have the flight deck cut from 1.5mm birch ply and clamp in place but this is just under 8 feet long so managed to get sheets 1200 mm by 330 mm which will suit.  I like the idea of the side armour plating on to help give the hull strength.  I did a dry fit run with the frames and the bilge keel in earlier photos and found then the hull was very sturdy and did not flex at all due to the top deck stringers which run the full length of the hull on both sides and with the prop and bilge keels in it did not move.  So I could then turn her upside down to work on her.  But thanks for the pointers always willing to learn.  :-))
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John W E

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2015, 06:15:58 PM »

Hi there Paul

I have just had a good read of your thread and I really admire your build/what you are taking on.

One thing that is going on in my head, and I cant get around it, are you going to fix the bilge keels to the frames first and then plank, so therefore you will be planking up to the bilge keels?  Or, are you going to plank & seal the hull first (with whatever method you like to use) and then fit the bilge keels?

Cos, fitting the bilge keels first I can foresee a few problems occurring whilst trying to seal the planking around the bilge keels unless you have a method in your mind, which you haven't disclosed as yet.

aye

John
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2015, 11:35:52 PM »

I can't wait to start a plank on frame model. working on that stern area must have been like juggling chainsaws, what with all the odd shapes and the fact that the shaft is the only solid thing for part of its run through the keel. The keel up framing does worry me, but as you say, you have a flat top to work with and you are turning her upside down to plank, so I reckon it will plank up nicely.

Using the armour belt as a stiffener is inspired; I will try that out one day.

Keep up the good work, its an interesting topic.
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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2015, 12:28:16 AM »

Paul......40 years ago.....my first POF vessel [six foot long] was built  <*<....with the full length keel plate securely screwed down to the building board........& with the frames notched into the keel plate and temporarily blocked & again screwed down to the building board

The building board was supported on trestles so this also allowed access to both sides of the hull ....... & there are however a few simple rules........

One plank to the port side.......the next plank is the identical but mirror reversed plank installed on the stdb side

This also near mirrors full size planking type construction ........remember Noah with his POF build had the Lord as his nautical building advisor all those years ago %)......... good luck........Derek
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2015, 11:28:38 AM »

The one thing I have learnt is to check and measure, check and measure and again.  When I did the building board I made sure it was just wide enough to work around and hold the frame in place.  Due to the size of the Ship I knew that to try and cut all the bulkheads by hand and ensure uniformity was not going to work for me; so I have the frames put onto a CAD software program and got them laser cut.   That way I know the frames would be very accurate and to the correct shape with no errors.  Then I worked out what spacing I needed to plank from the keel up to the frame and that worked out at 2.5 mm thick. 


So each frame mounted on a 12 mm deep keel was cut to a depth of 9.5 mm that would give me a height of of 8 in and 4/8.  from frame 21 to 5.  the last three frame are lower in height to allow for the dropped rear flight deck as she was during the 1939 to 42.   So made up my own height measure and when fitting each frame they where lowered on to the keel in dry fit to check height and adjustment made as necessary.   Each joint was a very tight fit to ensure a good fit and bond. 


To aid the fit and ensure all frames are square I fitted stringers along the deck to (1) ensure the frames are level and to ensure a rigidness. (2) to give nice square corners in all four areas.   Also used the set square to ensure perpendicular was straight and the ruler to ensure the center line was straight.  So as each bulkhead   is fitted (the photos show) I have used this method to ensure the complete frame will be set square.   


As planking starts, I will start from the top with one plank each side and work my way down to the center/water line.  Then work from the keel up to the center/water line trying to keep all the planks laying as straight and natural as possible with no twist and the use steelers to fill in the spaces.


I will be inserting the bilge keel before I plank to ensure a firm and rigid frame as recommend by the builder Mr Brian King in his advanced ship modelling book.  So as the planks reach the bilge keel they will be shaped to fit this keel and with the bonding agent make a nice bond.  Then once the frame has been built the inside of the POA I will coat with glass fibre agent thinned down so that it will fill and seal from the inside any gaps and aid the bond, could also use exterior varnish.


Once the shape of the outside of the hull is nice and smooth and correct shape I will coat with a pattern making film coat to give the gel type finish to the outside and then rub down with a second coat to remove any blemishes.   This is being researched as I build. saw a video on making a pattern for a mould and this looks like a better solution the P40.



Hope this information is useful.

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2015, 12:39:04 PM »

Beautiful work Paul.  I shall continue to read this build thread with great interest  :-))
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John W E

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2015, 01:39:59 PM »

Hi ya Paul

I can basically understand where you coming from in regards to the fitting of the bilge keels; as you are following the good advice /build notes of
Brian King, the builder.    I have both of his books and Advanced Ship Modelling mentions the bilge keel fitting. 

May I bring to your attention the fact that the majority of Brian's models are static - and this does, I feel, play a large part in keeping the hull watertight.   

'Bread and butter' building technique seems to be the preference of Mr King for his models.  This makes the fitting of the bilge keels a lot more simple - because the static model hulls don't really have to be watertight.

Also, 2 books to read which would be good - (well I find these helpful - for planking/fitting out hulls):

Ship Modelling from Scratch by Edwin B Leaf  ISBN No: 0 07 036817 1

Scale Model Warships by John Bowen -  ISBN No: 0 85177 070 X

These books are available sometimes on Fleabay at reasonable prices, but you may already have these to hand.

If you sought out the build of HMS Exeter 1939 I may have shown how I located and fitted the bilge keels on her with Plasticard/brass pins to support them into the frames.

aye

John
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2015, 04:27:58 PM »

Have had a look around for these books the first is on some sites and the cost is about 10.00 the second is not readerly available in this country, so will try my library and see what they have and have a read to see if there are items in there that I have not read as yet.


The test run I made with the bilge keel is to shape the plank around the shape of the bilge keel. This would then be bonded to the frame same as normal and then also bonded to the side of the bilge keel.  There should be no leaks if the bond is good.  Then with the sealer I am going to use on the inside to seal all the wood framing will add to the bonding in this area.  Then to paint the complete exterior of the hull with a pattern forming gel which is like a second strong skin will seal the exterior so there will be no place for water to leak inside in the area of the bilge keel as the hull will have a gel coating as strong as a GRP moulded hull. 


I take on board your comments and will watch and monitor this area with greater care based on your advise and we will see if it works.  I believe this self leveling gel coat will be the key.     
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2015, 02:38:15 PM »


Can any one help with some information on the attached photo which show some sort of window/slide cover or filter to the rear of the 4.5 HA/LA Mk111 gun turrets.  I have done the first set of turrets and fitted the air vents and shell extractor on the the 8 turrets, but not really sure what these area are.


1. the op of the turret in the foreground has some sort of riveted seam in the shape of a cover.
2. the turret in the background has what looks like windows/filters on the belvel of the turret at the rear.


Have not been able to trace any info so any gunnery officer/seaman have an idea what they might be?
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2015, 06:40:57 PM »

Here are photos of the 1st batch of 8 gun turrets which I will use for the 2nd aircraft carrier (GRP hull).  These where a trail run to iron out the build process so the 2nd batch for the plank and frame hull will be much better.   I found some photos which show the position of the air vents and the shell case extraction chute and the rear of the turrets I have put in the detail of the photos which I think is rear hatches to enter and leave the gun turret by the gun crew.   
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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2015, 07:47:29 PM »

They look fine to me Paul, that's what I do when I'm not sure about a detail just make it look like the photos at 1.96 scale it usually looks the part.  :-))
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2015, 09:13:46 PM »

That is an epic job making sixteen turrets. Still, they are well detailed what ever the bits do in real life. Are you goung to camouflage either of the carriers?
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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2015, 10:06:47 PM »

Paul......all those 4.5's look like identical cousins from the same factory :-))

BTW....that open mouthed bolt on is I believe termed as a "cows bell"......a solenoid hammer & bell.....very loud...used constantly when the mount was about to train or elevate

Very much like sounding of a fire bell of the same period........a warning device for other deck crew that the mount was about to move.....would not have been used during hostilities ............. Derek
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2015, 01:53:14 PM »

Thanks Derek, yes they do look like they came from the same factory, I try hard and do not always succeed but these 8 came out OK.  The next 8 should be a lot neater and with less errors in the joins.  I'll use some fine filler past to correct these but they will do for the GRP hull (HMS Indomitable). :-))
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2015, 05:20:09 PM »

Bit more done today, worked out the area of the platform which will hide the lead weight and strengthen the frames when bonded in.  Also checked the position of the motors in relation to the propshafts.  All drive will be by belt so need to ensure clearance for the belt and pulley system.   Once the template was measured and marked out on card this was cut and as the photos show fitted in without any problem.   The template will now be transferred to a section of 3.6mm ply ready for cutting and filling to fit.   The center line will be the cut line to fit in each section and when planking is complete will be removed and bonded in once the lead balance has been put in.  All this planning now will aid the fitment of motors and servo along with wiring so I should not have to make any adjustment and work in confined places later in the build.   I will also be putting cable conduits along and through the frames to keep wiring clear and tidy. 
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2015, 09:29:56 PM »

Even as a model, it looks cavernous Paul! I can already imagine the hangars fulll of aircraft, fitters and parts hanging from the beams.

Brilliant progress.
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2015, 08:24:10 PM »

All the frames have now been installed along with the rudder and the three propshafts.   The A frames have been marked and now need to make the securing brackets for them to lock into. (next job next week)  Also did some work on the GRP hull too.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2015, 08:50:21 PM »

That forward flight deck must really help stiffen the bows Paul.

I envy your neighbours across the road, I would be watching you build from the window all the time:O)
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2015, 08:54:22 PM »

The bow lines look really great, and once sanded to match the lie of the planks she will really look the part.  I am looking forward to sanding her down and getting ready to plank, but I must say she is looking very nice at the moment.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2015, 10:00:37 PM »

I almost want to see her with a transparent hull to show the frames off and perhaps the hangar in action!
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2015, 08:10:58 PM »

More work carried out on Lusty, her lower deck (Plate form for running gear has been cut and fitted (temp) so that the access for the props can now be seen.   I have now removed the keel supports and turn the hull upside down.  I have started to rub down the frames so that the planks will lie as flat as possible and follow the contours  of the hull.  I have her sitting on the flight deck sheets to mark off the frame locations and work out were the bow starts and the stern so that I can make the moulded sections in these areas with balsa wood block and then sand to shape.  Tested with a couple of strips of plank wood to get the feel.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2015, 11:06:07 PM »

Lovely work Paul. Now you have shaped the frames, it looks like a whale skeleton.

I look forward to the next installment.
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2015, 10:45:47 AM »

Thanks Ian,  she will hopefully have a bow and stern shell made and fitted ready for the main event the planking.  That should be fun as I just do not know where to start and the best way to lay the planks.  Do I steam then to get the twist and bends or do I grimp them to achieve the shape or just let them lie.  So many options and so little information out there for new starts.   Also the ship plans show areas outside the flight deck like the spoons and other walkways which look like they are part of the hull but the flight deck does not cover them so I have to find photos of these areas.   This hull is not going to be easy to plank!   %%
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John W E

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