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[raflaunches]

Hi everyone

Whilst I'm in the process of building my HMS Prince George Predreadnought battleship  I've read about a particular type of early cruiser known commonly as Elswick cruisers.
However...
To those in the know will know that this particular shipyard of Armstrong built warships were primarily built for foreign navies, such as Yoshino for Japan, Esmeralda for Chile, etc. my question before I start bothering the NMM plans section is because they were built for foreign navies would the collection of Elswick built cruisers be available from places like the National Maritime Museuem or other ship drawings collection or are they retained by the country who bought the warship?

If you contact the NMM when you need to inquire about warship drawings you need the ships name and the year of manufacturer or as much info about the class as possible but I'm unsure if they include warships built for countries other than the UK or commonwealth countries.

Many thanks in advance.

[cdsc123]

Hi Nick


Is this what you are after;


http://tsushima.su/uploads/photoarhiv/ships/russia/epoch_bron/brkr/bayan1/draw/bok.jpg

[raflaunches]

Hi Christian


It's similar but all the cruisers were built at Elswick by Armstrong, the Bayan was built in Russia.
It's very similar in design features, I'm interested in one called Giovanni Bausan often referred to as either a torpedo ram or a battleship destroyer.

[raflaunches]

Hi Christian


It's similar but all the cruisers were built at Elswick by Armstrong, the Bayan was built in Russia.
It's very similar in design features, I'm interested in one called Giovanni Bausan often referred to as either a torpedo ram or a battleship destroyer.

Apologies not built in Russia! Mis read the info, Bayan was built in Toulon France

[John W E]

hi ya Nick have you tried the Discovery Museum in Newcastle upon Tyne also there are the Tyne and Wear Archives which you may be able to try - I believe they may hold some plans - but of what time period/what vessels I have no idea.   Here's a link to the Discovery Museum.
 
http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/discovery.html
http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/tyne-and-wear-archives.html
 
aye
 
john

[Ian K]

Hi Nick,
 
I found this book https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/p/Warships+for+Export+18671927/8868/useful regarding Armstrong designed/built warships.
 
PS Great to meet you at Wicksteed on Sunday!
 
Regards
 
Ian

[raflaunches]

Hi John


Thanks for the links, I'll look into them and have a nosy around.


Hi Ian


Thanks for the link for the book, I completely forgot I had this book in my collection, I'll have to fetch it out and have a good look through it.
I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you at Wicksteed, we'll have to repeat it! I'll let everyone know what I find out.


Thanks to you both

[hmsantrim]

 Hi Nick.
    http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/italian-protected-cruiser-or-torpedo.html
  frank

[tonyH]

Hi Nick,

t'was good to meet you at Wickstead.

Just be careful, it's a slippery downward slope once you get into scratch building late 19th/early 20th century warships. You can easily become old before your time

I've had a quick google this a.m and there seems to be a book on Amazon.it called Il torpedo-ariete incrociatore Giovanni Bausan. There's also a possible site for the Italian Navy if you first google in italian. I tried something along the lines of 'piani di nave di guera Giovanni Bausan' or something similar.

You've probably seen the contemporary newspaper article from the New York Times of a visit from the ship and since she was partially refitted there, there may be some further info in the US.

When I built the model of Ambrakia, she had been built in London but the photos came from Italy and the plans came from Romania with additions from Brasseys so you have to think globally I'm afraid.

Good Luck - It's fun

Tony

[dodes]

Hi Nick, are you sure that Elswick designed and built for the RN, as I know that the RN were reliant on their guns for some time and I have read of Armstrong building a Victoria for the RN, but as yet found no record of a class built by them, but frustratingly most of my lit on this time era give name and particulars but not builder.

[tonyH]

Archivo Storico della Marina Militare Italiana gives the builders as Armstrongs at Walker and Elswick, so it's somewhere oop there.

The rest of the group seem to have been built at Venice and Castelmare to the Rendel design.

 

[dodes]

Hi Nick found this site and it lists some vessels built for the RN, takes a long time to open, but it may help you, though I think the vessels are built to the D N C design.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/elswick.htm

[dodes]

Forgot to mention you have to dial in Elswick Shipyard when you open up the site.

[tonyH]

It may help in the search that the Armstrong Job number was 453 and it was supposedly handed over from in May 1885.

[raflaunches]

Thanks tonyH, had a good look through my copy of Warships For Export, there was approx a page and a half on the subject of Giovanni Bausan with a rough GA drawing and a picture. Nothing really else which hasn't been mentioned or linked to on this thread. I've got a GA art picture coming from the USA and a couple of postcard size pictures coming via an auction site.
I enjoyed meeting you, and sailing with you at Wicksteed, your little French M4 submarine is a little gem, and your Descartes has many unique ideas I might be incorporating into my future projects, beautiful workmanship. I love doing research on the older vessels, it's the scarcity of the info but when you find something it's fantastic!



Thanks Dodes for the link to Battleships-cruisers website, Elswick did build a couple of warships for the Royal Navy, the Victoria, Invincible and Malaya being primarily the ones ordered by the Admiralty. However the many later vessels were bought by the RN from the shipyard instead of the original countries usually Chile, Brazil, Turkey or Argentina. Ships were the Eagle, Canada, and Swiftsure. They were usually bought at time of probable war or when the original country who placed the order couldn't afford them.


Thanks Frank for the link too, the picture they've used is the one I've bought from the USA on fleabay.


In the foreword of the book, Warships For Export, it mentions that the Vickers (owner of Armstrong) archive is stored in the Woolwich Arsenal which is part of the National a Maritime Museum with technical information also available at the Tyne and Wear Archives in the University in Newcastle. Might try them both for drawings.

[victorian]

Hello Nick


Funny you should ask about this. I have a correspondent in Chile who is interested in the original Esmeralda, the first protected cruiser and said to have been the fastest ship in the world when built in 1883.


The Chilean naval academy have the original builder's model of Esmeralda, but the model has been terribly ravaged by generations of Naval students who have stripped her bare! My friend has been asking for information in order to repair the model, but so far we've not been able to locate anything in Newcastle or anywhere else. I'll add a photo of the model shortly.


Note that the Esmeralda situation is confusing because the original ship was very simiar in appearance to the later Esmeralda III, also built at Elswick but in 1895. The Chilean Navy Museum have a superb builder's model of this ship as well, but this one is in perfect condition.  I was able to use many details of this model  in my construction of Niobe.

[dodes]

Hi Nick, one of the cruisers mentioned was the Spartan, which I presume is of the 1891 Apollo class.

[raflaunches]

Hi Victorian


It would be fantastic if could please, every bit of info is very helpful. It was good to see you again at the mayhem weekend and of course sail with you as part of the Victorian armada, wish I could have spoken with you got longer but kept being dragged away to help other visitors! Hopefully I'll see again this year, hopefully no later than Warwick but I'll keep you updated of my progress. Thank you.

[dodes]

Nick you have the hull and the plans to make a Elswick built cruiser, the Kents sister ship HMS Lancaster.

[raflaunches]

That's a good point Dodes, might build two Elswick cruisers as I'm interested in scratch building the Italian cruiser Giovanni Bausan and complete the Kent hull as Lancaster. Too many models to think about now!
Must finish the Majestic class battleship first though.

[raflaunches]

Hi everyone


I bought a print via amazon of the Giovanni Bausan, an Italian copy of an original Victorian era drawing.
Just look at those two 10" guns! The hull is only 280ish feet long making a 1/96 scale model 35inches long.

[ballastanksian]

I like the look of the GB Nick.

[raflaunches]

Hi Ian


That's why I chose her- she looks so different to the usual era of victorian warships!


I had a reply from the Curator of the NMM plans and photos section last week, he confirms that the NMM holds drawings of ships built for the Royal Navy by the Elswick yard but unfortunately the ones built for foreign navies are not apart from a few minor exceptions. Giovanni Bausan is not one of the exceptions...
However I did have a nice chat with him and I'm considering a rather adventurous project once I'm finished both Prince George and GB... The biggest white elephant of the 1890s... HMS Terrible-  Powerful Class Cruiser!!!

[ballastanksian]

You could build her as a troop carrier! I am not sure what armament remained during her duty in this role but it might provide interesting research to find out what, if any changes were made to the superstructure.

[raflaunches]

Ironically I've just bought a book about HMS Terrible and her Naval Brigades during the Boer War and the Boxer Rebellion. Amazing ship, I've got a picture of her sister HMS Powerful on trials travelling at 22knots with her stern sitting like a speed boat!
I still like the look of GB and may use the GA print from Italy as a basis of modelling drawings, but considering how big she'll be in 1/96 (35inches) maybe being that small I can get away with some minor variances and copy other Elswick designs and the print to create a hybrid hull and keep the superstructure as per the photos and print.