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Author Topic: I O M TT RACES  (Read 4231 times)

Neil

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I O M TT RACES
« on: June 04, 2014, 10:20:49 am »

As much as I absolutely love the TT races and have been going off and on since the heydays of 1966 when Agostini and hailwood to name just a few were racing, isn't it about time lunacy ended and some regulations brought in for rider protection......

Two guys dead in two days, one a 64 year old YES, SIXTY FOUR YEARS OLD, and yesterday ex British Supersport champ Karl Harris  died at Joey's on the circuit.

Where is the legislation to stop people like King if the Mountain, 20 times winner John McGuinness from powering a rocket around the place with a broken wrist, and is quite clearly unfit, because of his times........and a mad man like Michael Dunlop saying he'll go on racing until he either gets too old or dies doing the thing he loves...........

Surely to God, rider protection must be made far better, and these bikes made slower.
Alright, the manufacturers have all proved their point.......they can make a bike as fast as a Bugatti Veyron..........but no one goes to see these races to see a man ( or woman for that matter) to die in front of them at horrific speeds................so when will common sense prevail..........the IOM earns millions a year from this, the Manx GP and the car sprints, so when will they start to do something in collaboration with the ACU to start protecting the racers.

I don't want to sanitize the races, but surely safety comes first.......this slaughter EVERY SINGLE YEAR,  year on  wouldn't be allowed on any short circuit in the world................and it's a very sad cliché when ex riders say on TV..........."Oh, they died doing the sport they love"...........I'll bet they wouldn't have wanted to die in the first b***** place if the IOM and ACU had have tried to protect them better.
RIP Karl Harris and Bob Price, you died, sadly for the sport and your fans.......may you and your family have peace.
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TugCowboy

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 10:42:02 am »

There's full safety systems already fully built in.

It's called a throttle and brake. Less of one and more of the other would do fine. If they want to go too fast and kill themselves that's their business.
My uncle is an ex-TT racer who had a nasty crash there back in the late 80's and his legs are now mainly made of bits of metal.

He'll be the first to admit the crash was his fault and the only way you could stop people from killing themselves on the TT races is to get rid of it all together.

Ultimate responsibility lies with the rider. Why should everything have to be Nanny-state controlled?
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cabman

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 11:02:34 am »

I love motor sport. I love bikes and I love the TT, NW200, etc. We all know that these riders voluntarily put their lives at risk and it's very easy to justify their deaths by saying they died doing what they loved but improvements to the circuit have to be made. I have no idea how this can be done over such a large area but things must change to prevent this carnage. The same has to said for rallying where cars speed down tracks and in in some stages, spectators are more or less uncontrolled. I have seen spectators jump in front of speeding cars to take photo's as the car approached. Deaths in Grand Prix racing were regular occurrences until improvements were made to cars and circuits. As a result, the last Formula 1 death was Ayrton Senna. Road racing is a spectacular sport but I have to agree with Neil that unless some restrictions and/or safety standards can be improved, this event will sadly have to cease in its present format to protect riders and spectators.
My deepest sympathy goes to the families of the riders on their sad losses.
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Neil

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 11:10:07 am »


Ultimate responsibility lies with the rider. Why should everything have to be Nanny-state controlled?

Sadly you would not say that if this carnage % wise happened on public roads with normal drivers......you would want legislation which we have in place...........quite a flippant and horrifying statement you made, and sadly I feel that as long as riders have to please spectators with such lust for the carnage as you seem to have, they don't stand a chance of EVER  improving safety on the island.
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U-33

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 01:30:48 pm »

Races such as the TT always have been dangerous, it's a road circuit with man  hole covers, walls, shop fronts etc. Hit one of those at any sort of half decent speed and it's going to hurt. Even my favourite branch of motorsport...drag racing...has its own built in dangers, even with a track surface as smooth as the proverbial baby's bum...and there's no corners on a quarter mile straightway.


It all comes to the riders and drivers...they know the danger exists. They don't have to take part. End of story...


Rich
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Rich

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NFMike

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 01:31:58 pm »

Sadly you would not say that if this carnage % wise happened on public roads with normal drivers......you would want legislation which we have in place...........quite a flippant and horrifying statement you made, and sadly I feel that as long as riders have to please spectators with such lust for the carnage as you seem to have, they don't stand a chance of EVER  improving safety on the island.

But that is the point - it's not on public roads with normal drivers. It's on a racetrack with drivers/riders who know what they are getting in to. It's a modern version of gladiatoring and if you gave gladiators rubber swords there'd not be much point in it. [Edit - sorry, I just saw that horrible, unintended pun]

Cabman's point about spectator safety is certainly valid though - rallying needs to get it's act together on that.

Neil

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 02:08:07 pm »

it's not on public roads with normal drivers. It's on a racetrack

sorry Plague...............but you'll find that it isn't a race track at all.........it is a public road and up until an hour before the race is actually open to drive on by the public as normal A class roads.......hence the term "Road Racing"

yer a wee bit off track there with your statement. neil.
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carlmt

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 03:59:14 pm »

The whole attraction of the TT (and the Irish road races) is that they are NOT on sanitised short circuits.
 
The riders are under NO obligation to take part - and many of the top circuit riders dont (Rossi and the like) because they perceive the dangers to be too great.
 
The Road Racers CHOOSE to participate. THEY know the dangers all full well. Yes, certain safety matters have been tightened up in the last few years (weather related practice and race conditions particularly), and most probably there could be other measures.
 
Be certain - these races would NOT be held unless the governing bodies deemed them safe enough IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES of their environment.
 
As for spectator safety - when was the last time a spectator killed or injured during practice or a race at the TT? (I genuinely dont know - but it would certainly be headline-grabbing news if it happened!). Spectator safety probably takes a higher priority than does rider safety, as they have NO control over what happens on the road. There are many areas around the TT circuit that are out of bounds to spectators because of the perceived danger - and they get more numerous each year.
 
 

NFMike

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 04:07:38 pm »

sorry Plague...............but you'll find that it isn't a race track at all.........it is a public road and up until an hour before the race is actually open to drive on by the public as normal A class roads.......hence the term "Road Racing"

yer a wee bit off track there with your statement. neil.

Not off track at all, Neil. While the road is closed to the public it becomes a race-track. That is the point - there are no 'normal' drivers allowed and, mishaps excepted, all the vehicles are travelling in the same direction and at similar speeds which ensures better safety.

Neil

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 05:31:37 pm »

I am sorry, but all of you except one are missing the point............although the guys and girls who go to race there.........go for the racing.....THEY DON'T GO TO DIE................ and if the circuit and their  equipment were made safer.....airbags, and such on the circuits and clothing, it would lessen the risks............we all drive on roads, and know the risks of speeders, drunks and drug ridden motorist plus the many different ways in which our vehicles and the roads and surrounds themselves are made safer............and we don't ban driving............but they ARE MADE SAFER.................. and so could the IOM...........sadly the IOM play on the same cliché that you guys are doing........"they know the risks"........instead of saying.............SORRY BUT IT WOULD COST TOO MUCH..........AND THAT IS THE REAL REASON......QED.

AND JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR................I don't want to sanitize the racing any more than you lot do.........I want to see records broken............NOT NECKS............ and if these riders come off I would like it to be safer...........with collective airbags and any other thing that might mask the impact on a dry stone wall at 180mph...........plus the fact that if a guy is unfit to race because of a broken wrist......then the officials have the bottle to say he's unfit and scratch from the racing, like it is done in F1 and Moto GP
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IanPal

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 06:36:42 pm »

But do you really think if you hit a stone wall at 180 an airbag is going to save your life?


What I do find hard to understand though Neil, is why you feel the need to shout to try and get your point across, when you think that all but one seem to be missing your point of view?
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mrturbo553

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 06:51:02 pm »

 I have read people's views on the two tragic accidents with interest . More often than not I stay firmly seated on the hedge and just read the posts but this topic is very close to my heart. A little background information , twenty years working in the motorcycle trade ( this included police call outs to fatals), over ten years motorcycle drag racing and I live a stones throw from "Oliver's mount "  yes I've raced there al be it a hill climb. Nobody is forced to race, you choose ,the decision is yours only, but you try minimise the risks .i feel Neil's remarks about John mcguinness is slightly "blinkered" , he will have had a medical before being deemed fit to race . Bob price aged 65 , so what he'd raced there since 1992 . All the competitors know the risks involved in competing , I did and still raced . Every type of Motorsport is potentially fatal if accidents happen but we buy the best kit and assess risks. It's always saddening when somebody loses a life in Motorsport or any other sport for that matter .
Aid
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Neil

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 06:58:52 pm »

Sorry, ian......wasn't shouting.......just making my point firmly.

neil.
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U-33

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 07:25:22 pm »

The remarks about JM's injured wrist don't quite bear relevance...you often see MotoGP riders racing with injuries that haven't healed properly. Rossi riding just after breaking his leg...Pedrosa riding with a strapped up shoulder...and who was the one who was racing whilst chock a block full of painkillers after a very nasty hand injury?


And how about the Pro Mod drag race driver who broke his back many years ago now, and used to compete strapped into a specially built safety cage whilst still in his wheelchair?


I still maintain that these drivers and riders know the risks involved whilst following their chosen sport, and in the end, it's down to them to make the final choice whether to compete or not. I have the utmost respect for every one of them...strapping yourself into a 10,000hp Top Fuel dragster, straddling a MotoGP bike, or climbing into a Rally car requires balls the size of a planet. These men and women do this for the love of the sport and to entertain Joe Public...I admire each and every one of them, and I thank them all for doing it.









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Rich

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TheLongBuild

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 07:53:14 pm »

My personal opinion is that although tragic,they enter an extremely hazardous sport and know the risks.
I am sure/hope the organisers take a great deal of care to minimise injury.. But it happens.
My wife does out door swimming, the year before 2 extremely fit and healthy and well qualified swimmers to swim the channel died, when you look at the ratio of TT racers compared to people swimming the channel, swimming is a more risky sport...

My
Sympathy to the families of the riders.

dave301bounty

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2014, 08:01:56 pm »

got stuck in a road ambush, lots of roaring m bikes going no were fast but making a hell of a noise, WHY. this was on the approach road to the ferry, they couldn't get on any quicker, why all the noise, the mind boggles . %%
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mk1

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 01:04:21 am »

[THEY DON'T GO TO DIE] How many people leave home to go to work etc and don't come home again involved and killed in a accident. We all take that risk every day.Its up to the person he has a choice to do it or not. I lost a very good friend killed in a motorcycle and sidecar accident on a short circuit he know the risk yet still done it.


John
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Brian60

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 05:32:05 pm »

Neil the catch 22 question you are missing is surely.....

Roads as they are now equals rider deaths. Usually caused by the rider making a mistake-too fast into a corner, too much throttle exiting a corner, a few metres later at a braking point.

You cannot change this except stop the racing and here is why...

Leave roads alone- deaths continue.
Improve roads with resurfacing, altering corners, junctions etc-deaths continue!

Any improvements to the infrastructure will just ensure that the riders can use even more of the available machine power to go even faster. Check some of the  available dvd's of 70/80/90's races, look at the conditions. For every improvement to the circuit that is made there has been a commensurate increase in speed/decrease in lap times. Nothing you can do about it unless the races are banned.

Even doing away with the superbike classes and moving down to say 600cc maximum, riders will just wring every last ounce from the machine and they will still die. Check out one of the Dunlop brothers accident from a few years ago, only I think a 600cc machine but what an almight accident as the rear wheel collapsed!

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 05:45:24 pm »

The quest for ultimate performance will never go away.
Look at F1.
Every year the FIA bring in measures to make the cars slower,
By the end of the season they are going faster than last year.


Brian is quite correct .


You can die in an accident on a 250, 500, 1000 et al if you hit
something solid at speed,
This is why moto circuits have wide open spaces.


Let us pray for the guys and their families and salute the Gladiators.


Ned
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Peter Fitness

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2014, 11:16:35 pm »

Motor racing, in all its forms, is always going to generate debate regarding safety, both of the participants and the spectators. The IOM TT in particular tends to polarise opinion, mainly because of the nature of the track, and its inherent danger. I tend to subscribe to the opinion that riders enter this particular event fully aware of the dangers involved and, provided the safety of the onlookers is catered for, I don't have a problem with it. I do wonder, however, how safe spectators really are.


I have only ever seen the TT on TV, and have never been to the Isle of Man, but I am amazed that, in this day and age of ultra conservative health and safety regulations, the event has been allowed to continue. Having said that, I enjoy the sheer spectacle of seeing riders hurtle around such a testing circuit at what appears to me to be insane speeds :o


Peter.
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CJ1

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 08:55:02 am »

Sorry, ian......wasn't shouting.......just making my point firmly.

neil.


Writing in CAPITALS on the internet is shouting.


Chris

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U-33

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 09:23:59 am »

I know speed plays a part in the severity of accidents, but as much as you'd think...I've seen riders fall off at speeds in excess of 150mph, and get up and walk away cursing that they can't carry on. I've seen drag race cars totally disintegrate and explode into a 300mph fireball...when the dust settles, the driver is hauled out in one piece and waves to the spectators.


I was a pillion passenger on a friends Vincent Black Shadow...travelling at 25mph we came off. I broke practically every bone in my right side, suffered a fractured skull...my friend who was up front suffered awful injuries to his back.


All motor racing is dangerous...even tractor pulling. The tractors don't reach anything like high speed, but flip one over and it's going to hurt.


Organisers do a magnificent job of keeping riders and spectators as safe as possible, marshalls (mainly volunteers) are on the scene of an incident within seconds, but accidents can and will happen, despite everything they do...it's the nature of the sport.


Just as an afterthought...one of our little local villages recently held a cart race in aid of charity. This is the engineless carts that we all used to have as kids...couple of pieces of wood, a length of string, wheels from an old pram, that sort of thing. There was an accident at a corner on the course resulting in two small children and an adult receiving very nasty injuries, both had to be airlifted to hospital...thankfully they are expected to make a full recovery.


I guess that goes to show that no matter what branch of motorsport you compete in, an accident is always less than a millisecond away.


Rich

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Rich

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Brian60

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 09:47:11 am »

 1924 60mph, 1926 70mph, 1932 80mph

 1938 90mph, 1950 93mph, 1955 99.9mph

 1966 103mph, 1980 115mph, 1992 123mph

 2000 125mph, 2006 129mph, 2007 130mph

 2013 131mph

 I've done a quick table of figures from the IOM website. As you can see by year the speeds crept up almost entirely due to improvements to infrastructure- it makes a big difference riding on tarmac compared to dusty gravel tracks!
The most rider deaths (six) happened in 1970. Its interesting to note that the years 1955 to 1971 saw the biggest 'factory' involvement in the TT, it was actually a race on the grands prix (now motoGP) calendar until outcries over safety led by Barry Sheene. I do remember that magical 115mph lap being praised in the Motorcyle News paper and saying it would never be beaten! But look at the years 1992 to present- the lap speed has hardly moved, entirely due to the bikes of today being at or very near the limits that can be extracted from them. The only thing that will see that lap time improve now is not machineary but more track improvement-allowing faster speed on parts of the track where riders now consider it dangerous to go any faster!

 

Neil

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 09:54:03 am »


Writing in CAPITALS on the internet is shouting.


Chris

what ever................and if I want to shout, chris...........I'll SHOUT.  {-) {-) {-) {-)
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Neil

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Re: I O M TT RACES
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 09:56:10 am »

  2013 131mph

 

2014.............132.172........Bruce Ansty...the flying kiwi
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