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[tonyH]

Hi All,

I'm sorting out the masters for casting the turrets on the good ship Jaureguiberry.

The drawings indicate that only crew access is under the rear of the 305mm(12") and 274mm(11") turrets, while there are doors on the 138mm(6")

I've not been able to find any pics of the back ends of any contemporary units and it seems that 'up-and-under' is the norm over the big-gun years.

Logically this would keep the integrity of the turret but am I missing something ?

Can anyone help please?

Tony

[Navy2000]

On all of the big guns of US Naval ships they enter from under the rear section of the guns on the center line. This is that the armour thickness can be maintain of the guns. Just imagine of how thick the door would have to be along with the hinge that would be required for the doors.


Duane

[hmsantrim]

Hi
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_10-40_m1893.htm
 
Frank

[tonyH]

Hi,

That's what I thought should be the case Duane, but the picture from Frank ( Frank) illustrates the problem I'm having.

The big guns on the bow (and the stern) are the 12" (305mm) with 400mm of armour and a ladder on the plans that drops down below the turret on the centre line.

The small, twin turrets are the 5.3" (138mm) guns with only 100mm of armour and definite sliding doors to the rear.

BUT the single turrets to the port and starboard are the 11" (274mm) ones as detailed with the pic from Frank. They have 370mm of armour and show ladders coming down off-centre on the turret and also handles and gears that could just be for operating sliding doors.
The French were experimenting with loads of oddities at the time, so anything is possible

I've attached the problem drawing for your inspection.

Any advice would be much appreciated 

[hmsantrim]

Hi Tony.

 there are some resin models and lots of photos in here maybe the answer is there.
 
Frank

 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Jaureguiberry.&rlz=1T4GUEA_enGB581GB581&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Gh2nU6e7McWfO8r4gcgK&ved=0CEMQsAQ&biw=1365&bih=839#imgdii=_

[tonyH]

Hi Frank,

There lies the problem in a sense. There's loads of info but, as usual, lots of contradiction. For example, the main guns should have two sighting hoods but the better of the models only shows one.
I bought the Zvezda kit of Kniaz Suvarov (See below) which was French designed and could almost be a copy of JB and that has door 'lumps' on the lower rear of the main 12" turrets but none of the models of JB have them. It's also Murphys Law that all the important guns in the pics are pointing directly towards the camera

[Ian K]

Hi Tony,

Looking at the image you have posted for the turret access, It would appear the point of entry/exit IS from the underside of the turret floor.

If it had rear access, then there would be some form of ladder, either on the lower aft face of the turret, or on the bullwark interior.
 
I personally, would not expect high accuracy from an injection moulded kit from this era. The modern slide tooling, used for the current high end trumpeter kits etc; had not even been thought of or maybe be cost effective back then! So the suface detail is more for aesthetics rather than accuracy.

Do you have either a plan view, or front/rear sectional drawing of the offending turret? Looking closely at the bottom rear of the turret section, shows the access ladder, possibly off set from the centre line.

The gearing mechanism at the rear bottom, would possibly be used to opperate the horizontally sliding hatch, via a rack and pinion system, the hatch would have to be fairly heavy duty chunk of metal.

Just my thoughts and observations, so don't take as read!


Regards

Ian

[tonyH]

Hi Ian,

The trouble is that I'm sure that you're right and that the exit point should be from the underside but........................

1. The plan view of the turret is only on the G/A drawing and comes as a distorted oval as usual. If you look at the internal wall towards the rear of the turret, where it joins the roof line, it gives the impression of a thinning of the wall thickness and this could be for an entry point on the angle. These turrets overhang the tumblehome quite substantially so it would be logical to offset the access and effectively have a handed pair.
2. The 'lump' moulded onto the rear of the 12" turrets on KS is well above surface detail since it's a rectangle over 1mm thick. Again, its probably an artists impression but the rest of the details on the kit aren't bad atall.

You know better than me about the frustrations that detail can give but I've been staring at photos of battleship after battleship and even the ones that have blown up, like the Iena, and have the guns pointing at some crazy degree to the sky, have the turret itself pointing directly at the camera.

AAAArrrrggghhhhhh

[RAAArtyGunner]

 
Russian Drawings
 
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/irntrts.htm

[derekwarner]

Guys....without confusing the issue at hand   ...you must remember the French do things differently 

The first image below from 'Pan dune des deux machines a vapeur' is noted as 'Projection Vertical Longitudinal'
We would term this as an elevation or at worst a side elevation view

The second image below is termed 'Projection Horizontal'
We would term this a plan view

I think the French general arrangement Drawing standards from 1883 were well detailed and logically depicted...even if they used terms not taught in English speaking technical schools.......Derek

PS....I climbed up & into the FWD turret on BB63 [at my place of work] many years ago...we entered via a drop down ladder under the AFT PORT side of the mounting into a companionway which ran the full width of the turret

We then entered the STDB gunhouse via a very thick explosion proof door from the companionway....only one gunhouse of nine was available for inspection.....still an amazing sight 

[tonyH]

Right chaps, I think we have an answer.

Firstly, thanks to all who put their minds to the matter in hand. It was after the plans from RAAArtyGunner and discussions with Ian K that a probable course came to light.

It would appear that the Russian Naval Health and Safety Office insisted that gun crews should have clear access and that, notwithstanding the creation of weak points in the armour as demonstrated at Tsushima, sliding doors should be provided. The French, however, stuck with the original Schneider Canet designs with the 'bottom entry' method.

The two attached photos are fair evidence I believe and so JB will be doorless.

Cheers

Tony