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Author Topic: 2.4 GHz Radios  (Read 7677 times)

Bruce_mumford

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2.4 GHz Radios
« on: July 10, 2014, 07:25:02 pm »

Has anyone experience of the Howes Saturn 2.4GHz radios please, considering buying one.
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2014, 08:09:04 pm »

Had one as my first 2.4Ghz a 5 channel version. Not bad but moved quickly over to a DX6i when one came up cheap on fleabay.
The range in not that fantastic with lots of other boats on the lake. I found that anything over 20m and a big delay would occur when trying delicate manoeuvres which was a pain when rescuing other  boats.
Used it on my Dragonforce65 and providing I gave a couple of seconds between moving the controls I had range over the entire lake. Did have to time my changes well in advance or I would run aground.
Hope this helps
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Peter Fitness

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 12:26:59 am »

That's quite bizarre :o  I have several 2.4 Ghz radios of the cheap and cheerful Chinese variety and have never experienced delays such as you mention. The range is also excellent, and I have to say I have never had a problem of any kind with them. The big bonus, of course, is you don't have to worry about a frequency board, or hogging a particular frequency.


Peter.
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Neil

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2014, 05:00:41 pm »

Had one as my first 2.4Ghz a 5 channel version. Not bad but moved quickly over to a DX6i when one came up cheap on fleabay.
The range in not that fantastic with lots of other boats on the lake. I found that anything over 20m and a big delay would occur when trying delicate manoeuvres which was a pain when rescuing other  boats.
Used it on my Dragonforce65 and providing I gave a couple of seconds between moving the controls I had range over the entire lake. Did have to time my changes well in advance or I would run aground.
Hope this helps
as I've said before on here I have had awful trouble with range and signal with 2.4 in my lifeboats whilst sailing on salt water..........and no one believes me..........just went back to 40 meg and they work great..........in fact out this arvo and the boat was up the other end of the lake where I could hardly see her but still sailed well with no probs to the range or transmission..........I honestly believe it's the salt water on which I sail that stuffs up 2.4 gig range and transmission..........will not go back to it.
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 05:32:41 pm »

Not had a problem with the Dx6i. The lake is salt water but the issue of response only affected my cheap 2.4 unit. The Dx6i receiver does have two wires to receive the signal which would help. I think the receiver alone costs as much (£45) as the Saturn Tx/Rx together, they are cheap for a reason.
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Robert Davies

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2014, 05:52:29 pm »

as I've said before on here I have had awful trouble with range and signal with 2.4 in my lifeboats whilst sailing on salt water..........and no one believes me..........just went back to 40 meg and they work great..........in fact out this arvo and the boat was up the other end of the lake where I could hardly see her but still sailed well with no probs to the range or transmission..........I honestly believe it's the salt water on which I sail that stuffs up 2.4 gig range and transmission..........will not go back to it.

Something I was not aware of, not being a saltwater sailor myself. I'll see if I can do some research and find out as to what and why.

Neil, do you sail on the sea, or is it a saltwater filled lake? I only ask, as it is becoming more and more difficult to get hold of radio gear that is not 2.4ghz.

Puzzled of Wrexham
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2014, 05:58:53 pm »

I think its because the 2.4s arial is vey short so if the unit is near or under the waterline the signal won't get through. Salt water is a bit denser and I know the sub drivers can not use 2.4 as it does not penetrate the water deep enough for control
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Netleyned

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2014, 06:39:56 pm »

Sailed a DF in the sea at Cleethorpes.
DX6i and orange rx 
three hundred yards I can't see which way
she's pointing but no drop out .
Orange RX  Less than a fiver

Ned
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2014, 06:49:25 pm »

Use an Orange Rx in my DF as well. No probs at all apart from my appalling helmsman ship  :}
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Time Bandit

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2014, 07:02:19 pm »

Not had a problem with the Dx6i. The lake is salt water but the issue of response only affected my cheap 2.4 unit. The Dx6i receiver does have two wires to receive the signal which would help. I think the receiver alone costs as much (£45) as the Saturn Tx/Rx together, they are cheap for a reason.

That sounds like a problem due to the salt water.
The reciever antenna was probably below the water line (maybe on the Spektrum recievers one of the antennas was above the waterline?).
Penetration depth of 2,4Ghz in (sea) salt water is maybe 20mm, in "sweet" water maybe 20cm.
Just place the reciever above the water line and make sure that the radiation can reach the antenna in every angle. Also CRP hulls or if you e.g. build superstructures out of PCB material, these range issues can happen.
Everything that is conductive absorbs the radiation and makes the range smaller.
At 40 Mhz it also happens, but due to the lower frequency the absorption rate is much smaller.
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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2014, 07:11:45 pm »

Something I was not aware of, not being a saltwater sailor myself. I'll see if I can do some research and find out as to what and why.

Neil, do you sail on the sea, or is it a saltwater filled lake? I only ask, as it is becoming more and more difficult to get hold of radio gear that is not 2.4ghz.

Puzzled of Wrexham
Hi Robert.......it's sea water pumped in through an underground pipe from the tide at high water....Fleetwood lake.........we get plenty of shrimps crabs and the odd cod in there too, lol...............

but I have sailed a submarine on the lake before and totally lost control and that was with a 40 meg...............but a few of the guys who sail yachts on 2.4 say that on a rough day they also loose signal because the signal can't penetrate the waves........funnily enough getting hold of 40 meg is actually getting a little easier if only second hand......as more and more sell them off to replace with 2.4.............I bought a hitek and two futaba skysports on ebay.............all 40 meg.........two were so new they even still have the covering plastic stick ons to shield from ware and tare.......almost all brand new.....and got them for an average price of 60 quid each.........there are real good bargains to be had for 40 meg.

neil.
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Robert Davies

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2014, 08:24:23 pm »

Thanks Neil.

Some newcomers do not, or will not 'do' secondhand 'it must be new'…

I was beginning to consider the additional ionisation present in saltwater, when I found this post at the bottom of this page - scroll all the way down!:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=426869
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2014, 08:43:04 pm »

Love second hand!
I got my second Dx6i from fleabay rather cheap after I managed to launch both my DF and the Tx into the lake at the same time. :((
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Neil

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2014, 10:15:49 pm »

Thanks Neil.

Some newcomers do not, or will not 'do' secondhand 'it must be new'…

I was beginning to consider the additional ionisation present in saltwater, when I found this post at the bottom of this page - scroll all the way down!:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=426869
just read that Robert.......thanks..........now feel vindicated at what I have said all along that 2.4 don't work in my boats.........especially as I have to put the receivers below waterline because of the configuration of the boats.

also if anyone saw my radio sets........they would think they were brand new they are so good...........were a real bargain.....all off the same real nice chap, excellent to deal with. he's a member on here I think, but can't remember his name.. neil.
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2014, 10:19:50 pm »

It also explains why my DF has issues when it's overpowered and heeling way over. The receiver would be under water and not getting a clear signal
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Calimero

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2014, 11:54:43 am »

You could get a receiver with an auxiliary ("satellite") receiver to install as high as possible.
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2014, 12:09:44 pm »

On my spring/cat/? Thing I am building I am making sure the receiver is as high as possible. As it's primary use is as a rescue boat I want as clear a reception as I can get.
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Calimero

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2014, 02:34:26 pm »

It was more of a general observation.  :}

I use a Spektrum DX7S TX with a cheap OrangeRX R620 6ch receiver in my Springer. Aerial is on a 140mm wire. I taped it onto the coaming of the main hatch. Must be barely 5cm above waterline. I get 100m+ of range. Have never tester farther as either pond is too small or my eyes give up.  {-)

Another option would be to hook up a satellite/auxiliary RX and tape it to the roof of the wheelhouse. That would add two more aerials, higher up.

Are you going to build her purely as a "tool" or will your boat also have semi-scale looks ? If your unhindered by design/looks constraints you'll be able to get at least one aerial quite high very easily.
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Z750Jay

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2014, 07:12:02 pm »

Mine is to be a work horse so not constrained by trying to be semi scale. The superstructure will be function before form - apart from the ESC's all the electronics will be housed there. It also has to be set up to allow me to fit my stupid ideas as they come along including different themes and extra functions
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derekwarner

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2014, 02:47:07 am »

Guys ....just thinking out aloud  :o

1. the advantages of 2.4GHz over 36Mhz are apparent....[no issues or time limitations with conflicting frequencies at the poolside]
2. can the aerial from a 2.4GHz Rx be physically cut near deck level & a small M&F connector installed in the aerial wire to enable an accommodation block to be lifted off a vessel?
3. the size of the connector could be the centre core of a 3 mm stereo plug & socket....something simple with minimal force required to decouple......
4. surely the importance is to keep the aerial wire with the highest angular projection above the water level & not necessarily that the actual Rx is located in the same focal plane?

Derek
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Robert Davies

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2014, 03:05:50 am »

Thinking aloud Derek, with the pretty extreme losses incurred with these frequencies with almost any extended antenna cable run, I wonder whether it would be better to have the entire receiver in the remote/demountable superstructure, with the servos/power connected through an unpluggable multiway connector - so as to keep the antenna run as short as possible?



I don't know how feasible this would be? It's late/early, I'll go and have a sleep on it.

:-)
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malcolmfrary

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Re: 2.4 GHz Radios
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2014, 09:14:56 am »

On something like a DF, as long as the working bit of the aerial is on the centerline and taped to the underside of the deck there should be no problems unless there are enormous waves and troughs involved.
A 40MHz Aerial is usually something over a foot long, and, while designed as a tuned length, for our purposes, is not too fussy.  If a few inches are rendered unusable because of their siting, it is likely that it will go un-noticed.  On the other hand, lose half an inch off a one inch tuned aerial, that is serious, as would be cutting the level of the signal by mounting the aerial inside a radio shield.  Metal, carbon fibre and wood with a moisture content spring to mind.
Some sets have 2 aerials.  If these are properly mounted, there is a stronger likelyhood that one of them will get a valid signal.
Reading vendors parts lists, some receivers come with a longer lead, some have a longer lead listed as a spare part.  These are usually higher end products.  I would avoid modding an existing one since there is no way of sorting out what went wrong with easily available test gear.
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