Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: US Flower Box?  (Read 5487 times)

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
US Flower Box?
« on: October 13, 2014, 07:59:18 pm »

Hi All,

The attached is a pic of a Flower Class being converted. The large box with the tarpaulin cover appears on a lot of the converted ones and is, according to the legend (in white), a flag box.

Is it?

Thanks in anticipation

Tony
Logged

Umi_Ryuzuki

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,299
  • Location: PDX, OR USA
    • Models and Miniatures
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2014, 12:18:31 am »

It appears so, by your photo.
The semaphore and signal flags would be sorted and stored in these boxes and run up the mast as required.






tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2014, 09:36:44 am »

Thanks for that Umi. Its just that it seems so huge :D

Best Wishes

Tony
Logged

Umi_Ryuzuki

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,299
  • Location: PDX, OR USA
    • Models and Miniatures
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 07:03:28 pm »

I am always a bit in awe at the size of the colors often flown on board ships.
The ability to see them was paramount, especially in critical situations.


Quote
Flags at sea, Timothy Williams wrote,
"The most common sizes for signal flags nowadays(1986) are 78 inches by 96",
54 inches by 66 inches, and 30 inches by 36 inches."


Recent catalogs offer flags from; 9x 12 inches up to 48 x 72 inches



 Captain Frederick Marryat's A Code of Signals for the Merchant Service, published in 1817.
Suggested that flags be 6 feet by 8 feet, and that pennants be 4 feet by 18 feet


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_maritime_signal_flags#mediaviewer/File:Signal_flag_rack_on_board_the_HMNZS_Te_Kaha_-_F77.JPG


hmsantrim

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: U K
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 09:14:20 pm »

Hi Tony
 btw.A'Bunting "idoit"'  informal term used in the Royal Navyfor the sailors who hoist the signal flags.
 Frank.  O0


The  slang word  has been automatically altered by the forum's system...not the moderators.
 
Logged

Mad Scientist

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 10:31:41 pm »

That's a USN-style 'flag box'. The flags hang vertically, with the clips held ready for attaching. Probably not Inglefield clips as used by Commonwealth navies. At least in the 80's and 90's, USN signal flags had a spring-loaded clip at the hoist (top) and a simple metal loop spliced to the tail (bottom).

Tom, Canadian 'Bunting-"idoit"' (Ret'd)
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 07:31:54 pm »

Many thanks all!

I now know what I'm making, rather than just another deck 'box'!

Just a minor add-on please.

Did the box have a canvas hood, rather like a pram hood, for rough weather protection for the 'idoit'?

Tony ok2
Logged

Sandy

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 301
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 04:13:15 pm »

The US Navy tends to call them flag bags.
 
I think Fletcher class destroyers did have a little caboose for signalmen.
 
It was like a desk with a hood.
 
Sandy
Logged

Netleyned

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,049
  • Location: Meridian Line, Mouth of the Humber
    • cleethorpes mba
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 05:10:38 pm »

The RN call them Flag Lockers and if the flag wagger
tossed the wrong flag the Yeoman would call him
a bunting idiot or suchlike  :} :}

Ned
Logged
Smooth seas never made skilful sailors
Up Spirits  Stand fast the Holy Ghost.
http://www.cleethorpesmba.co.uk/

Sandy

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 301
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2014, 01:56:14 pm »

Not the picture I was looking for but here are the flag bags on a Fletcher class destroyer with canvas covers, and behind the closer one the hood for the signalman's desk.

As was explained to me this was just a sheltered desk for writing out and confirming signals.

HTH.



Sandy
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2014, 09:03:39 pm »

Many thanks Sandy!

Looking at the covers for the flag bags themselves, I think you can just make out the ribs of the hoods that give some protection when the bags are in use, rather like the hood of cabriolet.

With the single box on the Flower, it makes a very large and obvious unit just afore the funnel when it's open.

Thanks again all,

Tony ok2
Logged

dodes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 874
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 08:26:20 pm »

I was lead to call them " Bunting "xxxxx" " at sea.
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 10:13:07 pm »

Sorry All, next question :embarrassed:

The conversion of the Flower goes well and I'm now in the accessory stage.

The US Navy vessels carried a single workboat/lifeboat rather than the RN versions. From the photos, it appears to be about 20ft but I'm failing to find out what it is and hence to scratch build one.

Any ideas please?

Thanks again.

Tony
Logged

pugwash

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,842
  • Location: recently left Amble and now in the wet Northumberland hills
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2015, 07:48:02 pm »

The correct name for a signalman in the RN is a bunting t o s s e r and I was happy to have been one
for more than ten years

Geoff
Logged
Failing to prepare means preparing to fail.

ballastanksian

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,228
  • Model Boat Mayhem inspires me!
  • Location: Crewkerne
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 09:07:01 pm »

 :}

I love the navy and their terms, It made me laugh!
Logged
Pond weed is your enemy

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2022, 10:00:01 am »

Hi again,
This is one of those times when almost the same situation arises with a variation on the original question.
The model this time is of a PCS and whether the flag bag is a box or a bag? I know that on larger vessels it's a solid box as on the earlier photos but the photos (as below) I've found for the vessel type seem to suggest they could be canvas or similar, primarily because they aren't the standard color.
Could they be canvas on a metal frame?
Cheers
Tony

 
Logged

warspite

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,641
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2022, 10:42:37 am »

In another thread I replied with the following regards to USN Hazzard


but one did show the flag store, it looked like all the flags were stored vertically, they seemed to be rolled from one corner and then slotted into the box so that one corner was pointing out of each slot with a cover that hinged up from the back, it seemed to have a painted brass flag identification strip under the hinge at the back, and it appeared to be on the deck below as the area seemed dark as it was a shaded area. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbd9iQmP6N8  4 minutes and 19 seconds in

Shortly after is a work boat, it may give some ideas
Logged
Operational - 1/72 LCMIII, 1/180 Sovereign, HMS Victory to be sailed
Non Operational - 1/72 Corvette, 1/72 E-Boat, 1/72 vosper mtb
incomplete, tug, cardboard castle class convert

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2022, 12:05:28 pm »

Hi Warspite,
I hadn't ignored the Hazard info you kindly found and I built one using the film and this one from Shapecraft as patterns BUT I still question whether a lighter canvas version was around for 2 reasons.
The colour darkness is not shade, since the shadow of the port 20mm, pointing upright in its cover, suggests that the bag is in full sunlight. USN painting instructions of the time give deck blue as the colour for canvas covers under camo rules and this would appear darker against the normal superstructure colour.The bag is hung from the rail stanchions. As far as I can see from pics and the plans, the upper rails are cable not pipe, so not the strongest.
I know it's one of those questions but it's quite large and possibly one of the very few colourful bits on a grey fleet ship!
Cheers
Tony

Logged

Akira

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Hope, Maine USA
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2022, 12:43:55 pm »

Enlarging te first photo, I can see that the flag bag actually sits on the top of the superstructure beneath it. That and being welded to the flagman's platform gives it a bit of support. Note also that the forward rails halyard rails were deteled in favor of four cleats.As for the boats, There are numerous pictures at www.navsource.org of the many Flowers operated by the USN. While I saw few overhead shots, there were plenty showing boats mouted port or staboard. Furhter research may determine if the USN mounted more that one. As to the boats themselves,I do not recall seeing any version similar to that shown in your photo. I'll keep looking in my files. Most USN shipss mounted 36ft whaleboats, but due to space limitations on Flowers, I wonder if the USN choose to stick with RN supplied craft?
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2022, 02:29:38 pm »

Hi Akira,I seem to be causing some confusion by extending an old thread on the same subject, i.e. flag bags, for which I apologise.
I've completed a couple of US conversions on Flowers, both of which had "solid" flag bags on or hanging off the extended bridge (See pic1) using the photos on navsource.
In this case, the model is a PCS as in the latest pic (Reply 16). The drawings I have show the flag bag hanging off the rails (See pic 2) and it's that, along with the fact that the colour is not the 5H standard finish but significantly darker, possible the 20B, which is the standard finish for canvas colours. Hence my question about a lightweight flag bag.
Logged

Akira

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 484
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Hope, Maine USA
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2022, 02:49:37 pm »

Tony, I should have read more carefully....LOL. Iwould suggest going to NavSource and looking at pictures, both in the PCS files as well as thr YMS files. Colors..... especially during WW2. I would suspect that the weight of the materials used in making the flag bags varied depending upon the ship class. I would guess that the bags were supported above the deck level by being welded to the wire stancions, which may have been reinforced for that purpose. One must remember that camouflage directions were specific, to a point. The Captain retained discretion. Also, remember that the various paint colors were mixed aboard ship. there were formulas that crews were to follow, but one must realize that colors varied, by the batch and the "tastes" of the folks mixing them. (there was a USN sub painted a shade of pink) Lastly, various materials took colors differently so various object paainted with the same color often looks to be painted with differing formulas. Bottom line: as builders we have quite a bit of discretion in our representations. If is looks right go for it.
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,064
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: US Flower Box?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2022, 04:12:09 pm »

I would suspect that the weight of the materials used in making the flag bags varied depending upon the ship class. If is looks right go for it.
I strongly suspected that the weight factor came into the equation, partly because of my misgivings about the color which is so different from the normal 5 series grey but also because, certainly at 1/48 model scale, the ship is relatively unstable. If that was the case in the real thing then any top weight saving would be a bonus.

So....canvas it will be with as many colorful flags as I can stick in it, to relieve the acres of grey!
Many Thanks
Tony
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up