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Author Topic: Waterline on Spanish Galleon  (Read 3826 times)

Darv

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Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« on: November 28, 2014, 03:57:45 PM »

Hi all,


I'm new to the forum and in the process of building my first plank on frame ship.  It's an old Billings Boat design (Spansk Galleon - Isabella) which I think is now discontinued.


I have more or less finish the hull and sanded to an acceptable finish.  Parts of the hull need to be painted and I will also need to add the waterline.


My question is, which do I do first, paint then varnish or varnish, paint and varnish again?


Any help gratefully received!


Darv
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Tug-Kenny

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2014, 05:03:15 PM »


Our resident paint expert will be on soon so I would wait for  Stavros.

Don't put anything on until others have spoken as you look to have made a good job of that .

Cheers



ken      ( the last one in the world to advise about paint.   te he )

   
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derekwarner

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2014, 09:02:39 PM »

Darv.......your planking appears excellent for a first build

The manufacturers image is white from the waterline down & raw preserved timber above.....with a few highlights only

You will need to experiment staining the same planking off cuts before attempting to stain the hull itself

There are some excellent varnishes available as an alternate to polyurethane........I am also sure builders of similar bare wooden hulls will offer assistance here ....

Keep us posted with your progress.... Derek
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Derek Warner

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2014, 09:20:16 PM »

What type of paint and varnish are you going to use
 
Dave
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Footski

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2014, 07:55:33 AM »

Having built several plank on frame models, including one that is white below waterline and natural above, I will explain my approach.
To begin with, your planking looks excellent, but first off you need to use very fine filler and sand it down very smoothly. This will fill the joints between planks and prevent the paint or varnish from seeping through, leaving little gaps. Once done, draw the waterline on. For this I use a series of dots a half inch or so apart. Having tested the stain on off cuts, I then apply the stain to the upper side of the hull. This does not need to be accurate to the waterline as paint will be applied after.
Once dry, mask off the waterline and apply your paint in whatever fashion you choose. Do not let this dry completely or removal of the masking may pull some paint off. Having left the whole thing to dry properly the varnish can be applied to the upper works.
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Darv

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2014, 09:14:06 PM »

Thank you all for replying - it's really appreciated.  :-))


Ken, thanks for the advice with respect to not putting anything on the hull until others have spoken....I must admit, I'm a little nervous at this point in the build as I obviously don't want to make a big mistake and regret it!!!


I'd like to end up with a satin finish to the boat overall. That said, Derek has rightly pointed out that the manufacturers image shows what appears to be staining (in their image at least) to parts of the upper hull and a solid white below the waterline.  I'm guessing that I'm going to have to be very careful what paints, stains/lacquers I use to ensure a high quality finish.  To this end, I intend to make up some 'sample panels' with the offcuts and test everything before I apply anything to the hull itself.  There are a few local woodworking supply shops nearby (Hereford) and I was thinking of asking for advice.  However, I'm not sure whether they would be best placed to assist?


The list of materials provided in the instruction manual gives the Billings Boat paint numbers (which are available at Cornwall Model Boats) but these appear to be solid paints as opposed to stains.  I think I'd prefer to stain the wood as opposed to have a solid paint finish (any thoughts on this welcome) and then apply a satin varnish or lacquer to provide uniformity to the finish - whether I extend this over the waterline or not is something I'd like advice on.


If I do go for staining the wood (obechi) can anybody recommend suitable stains etc?


Finally, thank you for your comments regarding the planking. It's very encouraging having spent so much time wondering if what you're doing is good enough!!!


Regards,


Darv     %%
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derekwarner

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 02:44:11 AM »

Darv....in OZ we have products by Feast Watson call Proof Tints in small 50 ml bottles...I am sure you must have similar products in the UK

I mix them to form stains that have beautiful warm earthy tones and the beauty is with each plank being individual, when they are lightly stained & polished the grain of each plank differs from the next....

Apart from hull planking I use the Proof Tints to stain steam components lagging ......

Most important thing is not to rely on the Manufacturers stained sample boards.....but to use actual off cuts of the same batch of timber you planked your hull with

Being relatively light in hue.........the planks will accept colour readily....but having said all of this ultimately it is up to you to decide ........to me if the original vessel was built with bare preserved planking it would be a sin to paint it...you could always use the colour/staining scheme as shown in the Manufacturers image....

May seem a little laborious.......but why not assemble a few 50 x 50  squares of planking with the same glue you used for the hull planking .... & use these as your test patches.......

This way you will see the effects of stain running in between each plank and residing there as a darker line....... :-))...it will also provide a visual on the effect of the stain on any residue of glue that was not necessarily visible pre staining

There is also the wipe on...wipe off technique with staining.......  :D.......keep us posted.......Derek
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NoNuFink

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2014, 10:29:56 AM »

Query:  Just curious for future reference:-
In the past I have had difficulty with wood stain not taking evenly on a planked surface because the glue used had soaked into the wood in places.  The glue was invisible and not on the surface i.e. it had soaked into the grain so sanding would not have been a very efficient/good cure pre-staining.  So how do you get around this problem?

NoNuFink

 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2014, 11:29:05 AM »

Quote
So how do you get around this problem?

No easy way to remedy this other than to ensure that the glue doesn't get onto the surface in the first place which is easier to do if you are using a wood glue with water cleanup. If it has happened then you could be better off using a coloured woodstain varnish initially to get an even appearance as these coat the surface rather than stain into it.

As suggested above, make up some sample pieces using the same method as when planking the hull and use them as test pieces.

Colin
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NoNuFink

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2014, 03:34:44 PM »

Well that's more or less what I thought except that surely a water cleanup would just increase the glues' penetration properties?   The mention above of staining a complete planked hull worried me.  I would have thought that the chances of planking a complete hull without getting any glue penetration at all into the visible surface of the planking, was remote.  It certainly would be if I was doing it but then I don't claim to be a master builder.
Surely the same must apply to filler? I would expect that any filler, whether used for small gaps in the planking or grain filling, would absorb a different amount of stain to the base wood and would therefore show as a different colour.

Since there are (I think) various mentions of staining in build logs hereabouts, I assume that I'm either totally incompetent or that I'm missing something.  Personally I would go with the coloured varnish but even that can cause problems as any overlap in brush strokes causes a change of colour. 

NoNuFink
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Netleyned

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2014, 04:00:35 PM »

This begs the question, did the Spaniards Varnish their Galleons ?
Ned
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2014, 04:53:40 PM »

The water cleanup dilutes the glue and spreads whatever is left evenly over a wider area. As far as the coloured varnishes are concerned, they are usually water based and so you can use a flat brush to even out the colour. I actually used one of these on some wooden skirting in our conservatory last week after pulling off some trim which covered the gap between the floor laminate and the skirting. This left some whiteish scars where the trim had been pulled away and wouldn't be covered by the new smaller section trim. Just one coat of woodstain (OK I did slather it on a bit!) evened up the colour very effectively. It still looks quite 'woody' too!

I am no expert on the finishes used on old sailing ships but there were certainly types of varnish available based on various natural substances such as linseed oil etc.
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Netleyned

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2014, 05:00:08 PM »

Shellac and Linseed Oil  other oils were also available
Were used basically to protect the wood and would
have looked like a varnish.
Known as Brightwork back then.

Ned
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Darv

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2014, 06:37:35 PM »

Hi all,


I've been rummaging around on-line and have found Liberon Water Based Wood Dye - see pic below.


I'm going to make up some sample panels, 'dye' the wood and then lacquer/varnish over the top to see how it turns out.  Can anybody recommend a good quality satin finish spray lacquer/varnish?


Darv....in OZ we have products by Feast Watson call Proof Tints in small 50 ml bottles...I am sure you must have similar products in the UK


Derek, is this a similar product you use?  Is yours spirit based or water based?


Thanks,


Darv
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derekwarner

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2014, 07:35:34 PM »

 :-) ... I think Ned hit the nail when mentioning shellac & linseed oils......I also used the words "the original vessel was built with bare preserved planking" certainly in those days ... cans of aerosol polyurethane spray were not available  {-)

Darv....the Feast Watson products are manufactured from naturally occurring earth minerals & clays  and contains 60% Diacetone alcohol....so are turpentine clean-up

Recently in other threads on MBM, mention is made of Le Tonkinois brand natural varnish products.....may be worth some investigation  :-)) ... Derek

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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2014, 08:15:13 PM »

I have had good results with this one:-
http://www.colron.co.uk/products/wood-dye

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david48

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Re: Waterline on Spanish Galleon
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2014, 12:06:43 AM »

As mentioned in a early reply make a point of getting the glue you used on your sample and see what the result is when you stain . I have used Liberon before but it did not cover very well on the glue that came out of the joint even washing of with water ,it was PVA . Good luck in your endeavours.
David


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