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Author Topic: Graupner Seabex One  (Read 6408 times)

Brian60

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2019, 10:43:23 AM »

With reference to your detailing inside the moonpool (or anywhere really) I think you'll find as I have with the Stril Barents build, there is very little info to be had easily. The only way is making contact with (ex)crew in the hope they have photos they could share ( I got many from the 1st officer on mine)

However the thing to be born in mind is, 'who will see it and know its not correct'? In other words we as builders know something is not right and are never happy because of that, but the average viewer at poolside or shows will have no idea as to whether there is one watertight door or two inside for instance the moonpool, 1 ladder or 2. They will see detail and go oh and ah and coo, because it looks technical and good. They really have no idea as to whether it is correct or not unless they have photos to compare it to.
In other words we want it to look as correct as possible, but we have to bear in mind that sometimes this is just impossible to achieve.

oldiron

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2019, 11:42:37 AM »


Thanks for the kind offer John.How did you find the kit?I wasn't impressed but I feel we need to remember it was 80's technology and modern kits have 30 plus years of evolution since Seabex was released.


Regards


Nigel
  I agree, the kit was certainly less than stellar, but it was the eighties. I think Graupner produced many of their kits , at te time, as "quickie" type of kits . I built new decks, scratch built the main deck house, redisgned hull access, which was almost impossible the way Grgaupner designed it. A friend of mine built one and claimed he could never get it to steer right. I never had any problem that way though. It was an impressive vessel that could do all sorts of antics, but not a terribly good one if you built it as provided. I had trouble trying to find photos of the protoype to detail my model from. Looks like there is more available now, but not during the early 90's when I built mine. Now mine sits on the shelf. I've tried selling it, but no one here seems interested.
John
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2019, 06:16:08 PM »

With reference to your detailing inside the moonpool (or anywhere really) I think you'll find as I have with the Stril Barents build, there is very little info to be had easily. The only way is making contact with (ex)crew in the hope they have photos they could share ( I got many from the 1st officer on mine)

However the thing to be born in mind is, 'who will see it and know its not correct'? In other words we as builders know something is not right and are never happy because of that, but the average viewer at poolside or shows will have no idea as to whether there is one watertight door or two inside for instance the moonpool, 1 ladder or 2. They will see detail and go oh and ah and coo, because it looks technical and good. They really have no idea as to whether it is correct or not unless they have photos to compare it to.
In other words we want it to look as correct as possible, but we have to bear in mind that sometimes this is just impossible to achieve.



I totally agree Brian.What enhancements I have added,are purely based on researching 'generic' shipyard practice via google.I have given up any attempt to produce an exact replica.Much easier to adopt this approach on a relatively new vessel.As an example,I did purchase Graupner's Nordic kit before Christmas.Aside from the kit being on a different planet to Seabex,I have obtained a book by a German publisher solely on the design and construction of her.The book is English text and has countless pictures of her being built and when complete.Also I have many additional pics I have easily found off the net.Out of the box,the kit is accurate to my info above the waterline,the korts are simplified as are the becker rudders below.So I can say the model will be pretty close to the prototype when built with a few small additions,not alterations.Mainly deck lighting and under deck bracing.


Regards


Nigel
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2019, 06:31:11 PM »


Nice model John!


Yes one or two more pics have appeared since I got this kit in early 2000's but still not masses.Not heard the steering issue one,main complaint I have heard about is the 'bow wave' washing over the aft deck from inside the moonpool when full ahead,one reason I have done so much additional work in this area.


Regards


Nigel
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oldiron

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2019, 09:39:25 PM »

Nice model John!


Yes one or two more pics have appeared since I got this kit in early 2000's but still not masses.Not heard the steering issue one,main complaint I have heard about is the 'bow wave' washing over the aft deck from inside the moonpool when full ahead,one reason I have done so much additional work in this area.


Regards
LOL, yes that moon pool bow wave is impressive if you get too much speed up. I never saw an detail on the inside of the mooon pool until this thread. I've learned a lot from that, including how to abate the moon pool bow wave.
John


Nigel
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2019, 10:15:34 PM »


John


I am in contact with the chap that built the model when it was first launched for an exhibition in London in the 80's.He is still doing bits to it now.He says he has got around the problem by fitting what I can only describe as a 'aerofoil' under the ship in front of the moonpool.It is only like a flared bottom to deflect water downwards to reduce this effect.This is a simple retrofit solution to anyone who has built this model and doesn't want to chop it about.


Regards


Nigel
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oldiron

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2019, 11:27:19 PM »

John


I am in contact with the chap that built the model when it was first launched for an exhibition in London in the 80's.He is still doing bits to it now.He says he has got around the problem by fitting what I can only describe as a 'aerofoil' under the ship in front of the moonpool.It is only like a flared bottom to deflect water downwards to reduce this effect.This is a simple retrofit solution to anyone who has built this model and doesn't want to chop it about.


Regards


Nigel
Thanks very much for the tip
John
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2019, 11:32:23 PM »


I am now working on the false deck and hatch.Basically I want to sort this area as I am going to portray the two tracks that run down the deck and carry the support frame for the moonpool.


There is a subdeck from clear Perspex.This has to have holes to clear the motors as everything is so tight.There are two holes to add for battery venting whilst charging as I have an additional battery aft.Around all the holes will be slivers of clear Perspex tube.these will butt up against the underneath of the removable deck.The Perspex sub deck will be sealed with a bead of clear silicon around the top.This should eliminate ingress from water splashes on deck short of full on immersion.


The actual deck panel is laid up Epoxy glass and will have small galvanised washers epoxied to the underside to marry up with the neodym magnets I bonded into the combing.


Regards


Nigel
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RST

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2019, 11:23:18 PM »

nmbrook I think you are doing a fantastic job on this.  My one comment with regards to modelling would be to avoid silicon adhesives like the plague.  If you have a tube of proper siicon keep it away from absolutely anything you wish to glue or paint afterwards.  Folk however, often confuse tubes of mastic "silicon" which these days are mostly are acrylic and they are OK but please keep silicon away from everything else you expect to be glued or paint afterwards.  It is such a horrid infectious product that the vinegar smelling fumes affect everything else you might want to glue or paint in future and the clean-up isn't worth the hassle in the first place.

...Also to say as someone who has worked on DSV's and converted a pipelayer.  I would not be too concerned with matching plans exactly.  I'm guessing in an ideal situation for these types of vessel,  the design is in principle.  I have seen it myself -what leaves the yard is perhaps something different.  I can tell you also that some things change within about 10mins of sea trials -what modellers always look for is the builders plans, and whats ends up in service is potentially very different. 

For me, you mention ladders in the wrong place -etc, if it were me I would try and represent something so corroded in the first place that although the procedure said the rescue diver should go down there -he wouldn't even consider it in his right mind!

Moonpools on this hullform attract allot of drag I guess.  On the Osprey -with "open" moonpools in rough transits -water flooding main deck was occasionally an issue and very wet decks even when on DP.  They were very wet areas on some rough transits.  There were some very long standing personnel on the vessel who did not understand the concept that the watertight door at the moonpool couldn't be tied-open for "convenience" -eaxactly because this was a huge potential for flooding and any fire to propagate into the accomodation, least-wise form the watertight integrity of the vessel.

Water in the moonpool area at main deck was apparently always an issue.  As I mentioned before, we dived in quite bad conditions compared o modern competitirs, I never saw it myself but there was water up the moonpool, flooded dive control, washed down into the old moonpool area.  Main deck totally flooded in a deluge.  Main deck on this design is not that much above wl, 3m-ish, but when you work in something like 6m sig wave height before any alarms on the bell start sounding etc.  In that respect your choice of closing doors on the bottom of the moonpool for transits looks entirely representative.

I would't hit the original makers of the kit too hard.  For me I find allot of European kits in different scales are a prepresentative.  For example I find railway kits are moulded in some form of pre-coloured plastic -the idea of modifying, painting or even weathering afterwards seems an alien concept.  Also, on the other end of the scale, I gave-up on "N" gauge modelling because the quality of the apparanely "acceptable" kits meant I had to file-back detail and replace myself, or other such mis-moulded parts were so badly formed I had to scratch build myself.  Throwing away up to 90% of a railway kit is apparently acceptable and perfectly normal.  I have always said we do it better from the start in marine modelling.
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2019, 08:53:01 AM »


Thanks Rich


The idea is just to use a fine bead of silicon around the edge of the Perspex after it has been dropped in position.The bead can be sliced through with a scalpel and the Perspex removed for maintenance,and a new bead run round when the Perspex when refitted.This sealing will only happen after completion and painting.Yes I agree it is awful stuff but does have some uses,


My moonpool doors are a copy of those fabricated by a company who specialises in these.Good old google images.I have had it confirmed Seabex did have some sort of doors but the actual design is as yet unknown to me.I have just gone with a feasible representation based on general modern shipbuilding practice,combined with my experience of nearly 30 years in heavy steel fabrication.Nearest I have got to offshore though is building some skids for a rig many years ago.,I do work with a few lads who have worked at shipyards in the UK and Holland and one or two from Heerema who mainly worked fabricating rig jackets.


Regards


Nigel
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RST

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2019, 09:55:31 PM »

Hi,

Doors seem sensible.  In normal weather the column of water in the moonpool on the Osprey caused a huge in-out rush of air into the adjacent spaces (I say normal -up to 6m waves!).  In rough weather, the main deck could take some water and in really bad transits the water did come up and did flood areas sometimes.
Not all pipelayers / DSV's have bottom doors on moonpools.  Sometimes the aft edge is profiled though, I have never heard of a profile on the leading edge but might make sense.  I was sent a doc. control drawing update today ("clearance for ILT's and PLETS through moonpool") and on the vessel for the company I'm contracted to now it looks like they have bottom doors also.  I'm guessing though that bottom doors will never be watertight.

...think you're on the right track though.

Rich
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2019, 03:45:44 PM »


A bit of a pause in updates but work is still moving along.I have being trying to get my head around the order of paint and further construction.My design of integrating the funnels into the hull moulding is great for strength and a seamless finish but makes things interesting regarding painting.The funnels can't be completed without fitting the front deck but the wiring needs routing before this can happen.The inside of the aft section of the hull needs painting inside before the wiring can be run as well a fitting the hardware

Basically I have decided in view of the size of this thing and the increasing amount of delicate items topsides to fill/prime the hull and get the dark brown antifouling on so the aft drives can be fitted and the remaining hardware.At least then I reduce the amount of handling as the model is starting to get heavy even without batteries.The funnel areas will require further fill/prime and blending in later in the build before the red goes on the upper hull.


What is shown is two sessions of filler primer,flating back and acrylic 'stopper'.I used Halfords plastic filler primer initially to get a chemical bond to the hull.Subsequent layers are regular filler primer.The plastic version has a 'chemical' etch quality which in my experience causes sinking when trying to build a decent layer to flat back.So far there are two litres of paint gone on to the hull,however quite a lot has been flatted back off again.I have been using 400 grit wet  and dry and will only go down to finer grades after the filler primer stage is complete.The main thing is the use of a long rubber bodyshop sanding block.This avoids ripples on the large flat areas.


I have been spraying outside mid afternoon at around 14 to 15 degrees.Cool yes but the air is dry so haven't had any issues.If anything this has helped with paint flow out.A light breeze has also helped with drawing the solvent out of the paint.Big advantage at this time of year is no insects about to get stuck in the paint :-)) The model is taken indoors and left alone for a full week before continuing.


I anticipate another two applications of filler primer and flating before I can think about the grey primer base for the Vallejo brown antifouling.If anyone is wondering,the two holes forward of the aft thrusters are intakes for the fire monitors


Regards


Nigel
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Krijn

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2019, 12:35:09 PM »

great model, awesome job.
i have a seabex one that was build by a guy that is a trophee-builder but he didn't go as ... "fanatic" as you did, however as mine had been sitting in a transport box in his shed for many years  i quickly discovered issues.. for starters it used 2 transmitters to drive the ship, 1 for the ship and a separate MRC 5 wire one for the crane.. i ripped them both out, my much more modern X9E cant work with the old servo's and 5 wire.. nope.

i have it set up as follows now .speed controllers  -2  1 for bow , 1 for stern.1 x 996 mg servo for stern 2x 995 mg servo's for bow  (these take 2 channels and the bow ones can be connected in the transmitter)2 5A speed controllers for the crane/boom/winch, still have to figure out how to make the end stops work (see attached drawing)1X 996 360 degree servo for crane rotation.1x 6 turns sail servo for diving bell.flying  RC helicopter (separate IR transmitter)micro Toy Submarine (separate 27mhz  transmitter)
1 x standard servo for the pump
1x 7 channel switch for lights/radar/other gadgets/sound
as the transmitter i plan to use is either the taranis X9D pro, the Taranis X9E or the Flysky i10  and all have the s-bus function channels is not an issue, s-bus decoders are easy to set up and cheaper then a 2nd receiver. (i have all 3 transmitters and several more)i am not upgrading the drive units, yes i know the plastic steering/shottel latches are cracked but thanks to a German forum i have the .stl files and i have printed  replacement ones.
main issue is the wiring in the crane, as i replaced the 2 graupner/faulhaber 05 motors with much newer and stronger and smaller 5V n20 motors that draw less current  and discovered part of the technical schematic is missing.. i'm now stuck.
the end stop switches only had 2 wires for the winch and 3 for the boom, no matter how we tried to figure it out.. it didn't work as we missed part of the schematic, any suggestions would be welcome. i have 2 dual over relays on order from Hong Kong (8 pin) as well as some nice Kevlar thread to make the crane functional again.
thanks in advance, pictures will be taken tomorrow during 1 of the many trials.

Krijn
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Krijn

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2019, 12:40:28 PM »

update
the voltage in the previous post is nolonger 1.5 V but 4.8-5V 

thanks

Krijn
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timgarrod

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2019, 01:17:55 PM »

how about using a arduino. Use the mircoswitch as triggers.


There a few on here and me that could help out ??


Cheers
tim
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Krijn

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2019, 01:32:26 PM »

I'm not that good with Arduino's , i fix real computers (laptops) for a living but coding is not my forte.
i had a friend make me an Arduino for the 18 gun turrets on my USS Midway and that took 8 months, and its still not right ... took me 5 months to figure out how to get auto-bed -leveling to work on my Tronxy pm802 printer.
besides... i don't want the boat to be smarter then i am  %%
for sound.. yes arduino with sd card reader,  but for the crane.. nah i would only get confused.
besides the schematic can't be that hard to figure out, its a case of knowing the connections... and i don't.
Krijn

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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2019, 08:05:27 PM »


Hi Krijn


I am using old Robbe polarity reversing modules.I bought a few before the demise of Robbe.These are now reavailable under the Romarin brand.Graupner's wiring diagram was as much use as a chocolate fireguard to me,I couldn't get my around how the microswitch limits worked.I adopted a system using diodes.Basically there is two circuits for each motor but each has a diode in so will only function with the motor turning in one direction.A microswitch is incorporated into each circuit to stop the motor turning in the direction of the particular circuit.I only used the common and normally closed terminals on the microswitches


Kind Regards


Nigel
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Krijn

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2019, 10:28:27 PM »

Hello Nigel

could you draw that schematic out so i can see it, i am now waiting on my 5A speed controllers for the crane to arrive as i just can't figure the schematic Graupner gave us out.i also discovered another issue with seabex.... Torque-steer...
on 12 volt my 996 digital MG 15kg servo can not keep the shottels on the centerline, so i asume its time for some changes to the stern steering.
i have an arduino coming so if all else fails i could make a self-programmable crane, one that learns from its mistakes.but i would feel useless,  having an rc boat with better memory and more intelligence then me... nope.. well maybe..

i have the new motors in, 1 of the 2  5a  esc's,  and 2 5v dc 8 pin relays on the way, that reminds me i also need to find counter rotating props.
enjoy
Krijn
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nmbrook

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Re: Graupner Seabex One
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2019, 10:39:21 PM »


Hi Krijn


I will attempt to draw a schematic.Electronics is not my strongpoint,yes I know Seabex isn't really the project to learn on {-) Give me a couple of days.I am flat out trying to organise my new workshop over this Bank holiday weekend.We moved house a couple of months ago hence the reason why no updates.
The circuit took a bit of trial and error until I got what I wanted,but isn't really that complex.


Kind Regards


Nigel
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