Model Boat Mayhem

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Author Topic: Couple more boat tragedies  (Read 10690 times)

tugmad

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2015, 05:01:27 PM »

It makes one wonder now about the people running this country, Gatwick airport shut down for a day because a Jumbo had to make an emergency landing   OOPs our emergency runway at Manston Airport, the longest runway in the country has gone now.  and now a big ship aground and we have NO emergency Salvage tugs on station any more another big OOOOPS.  this one could have been a big disaster with 500 tons of fuel on board,  No forward thinking in our governments at all.  Geo   <*< <*< <*< <*<
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2015, 07:22:42 PM »

I don't think Gatwick was down for 24 hours! Pulling a 747 off the runway when it was possible that the undercarriage could collapse was obviously going to take a bit of time.

With regard to the stranding in the Solent, whilst I agree that the absence of on station salvage tugs is a stupid decision, in this case the presence of one would have made no difference to the situation whatsoever.

If you are going to criticise then the facts need to be right and the criticism constructive!

Colin
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NFMike

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2015, 11:25:31 PM »

These days ships and aircraft are far more reliable than 30-40 years ago, so the need for expensive backups is less. Given the cost of maintaining such backups it is not surprising they are removed when possible - one way or another those costs end up being paid by us.

As Colin says, a nearby salvage tug wouldn't have made any difference in this case, and Gatwick being shut for a few hours once every few years for an emergency is just a few delayed holidaymakers and businessmen. Not the end of the world.

Colin Bishop

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2015, 03:19:39 PM »

Seems that the ship has now refloated herself! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-30716023

Colin
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DavieTait

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2015, 03:26:51 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-30716023

she's floated off by herself and the salvors are in a panic trying to get lines onto her to get her under control.......
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Davie Tait,
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Neil

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2015, 03:58:20 PM »

well, I am absolutely amazed at that.....but fairs fair.....I admit being wrong.........thought she and her jags was a right off........amazing what the sea keeps coming up with. neil.
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Brian60

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2015, 04:01:38 PM »

Jaguar Land Rover group have over 100 million worth of vehicles on the ship.  I wonder what sort of state there in now? it'll keep the bodyshop going %%

DavieTait

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2015, 04:09:50 PM »

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=769303846493541&set=vb.153132638110668&type=2&theater

Bet the salvors are in a panic trying to get lines aboard... old Del Boy will be wanting a "new" Jaguar lol
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Davie Tait,
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2015, 04:44:31 PM »

I did see a report which suggested that the cars aboard are generally OK as the lash down fixings have held so far but that some of the heavier machinery, JCBs etc. has shifted.

Ships on deep sea voyages can encounter high seas so the cargo does have to be pretty well secured down.

I would imagine that the priority is to get the ballast tanks on the high side filled to bring her back upright.

Colin

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BailingBen

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2015, 12:10:13 AM »

for sale ,
land rover
slight cosmetic and water damage but still ok,
collection only,
spit bank.
 %)
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triumphjon

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2015, 12:25:52 AM »

was the land rover left behind then ben , the ship is currently off spitbank !
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Stavros

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2015, 02:54:23 PM »

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Captbearuk

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2015, 12:10:21 PM »

Colin,
Strange as it may seem, you first look at adding water to ballast tanks low in the vessel, which may even be on the low side and make a list worse.
Adding water to ballast tanks on the high side can be very dangerous as it has the potential to capsize the vessel the other way.
Glyn
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2015, 01:05:26 PM »

Yes, I think I understand what you mean, it rather depends on what the metacentric height of the vessel is and the consequent righting forces. So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the overall CoG of the needs to be lowered by settling the ship deeper in the water to give a greater stability margin before transferring ballast from one side to the other. Given that some water has been shipped into the vehicle decks as a result of the list I imagine that there are some quite complex calculations taking place!

Colin
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NFMike

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2015, 01:37:33 PM »

Given that some water has been shipped into the vehicle decks as a result of the list I imagine that there are some quite complex calculations taking place!
Almost certainly. As reported on the news the angle of list also makes handling of the salvage equipment down below difficult. Presumably they believe the ship is currently stable, so don't need to rush with whatever they have to do.

BarryM

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2015, 02:34:44 PM »

Yes, I think I understand what you mean, it rather depends on what the metacentric height of the vessel is and the consequent righting forces. So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the overall CoG of the needs to be lowered by settling the ship deeper in the water to give a greater stability margin before transferring ballast from one side to the other. Given that some water has been shipped into the vehicle decks as a result of the list I imagine that there are some quite complex calculations taking place!

Colin

Colin,
Memories of Naval Architecture classes in which we were drilled in the stability of vessels and the forces acting on them are still contained somewhere in my fading memory banks. The ship has achieved the 'Angle of Loll' where, alarming though her appearance undoubtedly is, she is stable unless acted on adversely by external forces. Glyn is correct about the dangers of adding ballast on the high side even though that may be - initially - thought of as the logical step.  As you say, it is all down to CoG and CoB to re-establish stability and vertical equilibrium.

Of course, the question why she left her berth in an unstable condition is one that the MCA, Owners and underwriters will be very interested to establish.

Gosh, that wore me out; I'm going for a lie-down.
Regards,
Barry M


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dpbarry

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2015, 03:24:38 PM »

.i imagine the second incident was just badly stowed cargo , wind over tide chucks it around and suddenly shes over before a mayday can be sent , epirbs have to hit the water to activate , so if the crew wernt wearing them , or the ships epirb was somewhere that stayed dry when she went over , they wouldn't activate anyway , on depends where they were , if the crew were off deck and had them on their lifejackets in a watertight locker or compartment then they wouldn't activate , i do wonder weather any crew are inside the boat , in an air pocket or something , even if they were theyd be dead now anyway 
 RIP


Technically, EPIRBS don't have to be in water to activate.  It depends on the make. Removing the cover on some allows the antenna to spring out which also acts as a switch thus activating the EPIRB. That's the type fitted to most commercial vessels.


If a ships EPIRB has been stored in in a dry area then that is against regulation. It must be fixed to a section of the vessel that will allow it to float free without being hindered by any obstruction. I've seen scary installation where the covers of EPIRB's have been tied with no mission of ever activating. The same with liferafts. One vessel I had contact with had the shackles of the hydrostatic mechanism tied together with cable ties. He wasn't long removing them when I pointed out that his liferaft would never deploy based on what he had done

We've just received personal locator beacons for our lifejackets (RNLI). Currently reading the blurb on how they should be activated in the event we ever need to use them.

Declan
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BailingBen

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2015, 03:56:10 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up dpbarry , I thought they were just wasted activated , he life raft incident , was he still in port ?  Many people I know keep there life rafts locked up or cabletied whilst in port to stop people nicking them , I guess it's just rembering to unlock them when you head out



Kk
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2015, 04:15:09 PM »

Quote
Many people I know keep there life rafts locked up or cabletied whilst in port to stop people nicking them , I guess it's just rembering to unlock them when you head out

Quite right, you do have to chain down a lot of gear or stow it below if you have your own boat. I used to have a pre sailing checklist to work through to ensure that the boat was seaworthy.

As far as commercial ships are concerned, many are very badly run and lacking in all sorts of safety precaution as evidenced by the number of vessels routinely detained by the Coastguards. I'm not suggesting that this was the case here but we may find out in due course.

Colin
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Captbearuk

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2015, 04:47:25 PM »

Colin,
I have to do a Stability training refresher every 4 years on a hydraulically operated simulator. One of the exercises they place the vessel at an 'Angle of Loll' and then get you to fill the high side. The whole machine, a simulated ballast room, levels up and then goes over with quite a thump. Something you tend to remember.
As for EPIRB's, the ship ones are released by hydrostatic release units and are self activating. We also use personal EPIRB's when travelling by helicopter and these are as Declan stated, manually activated. I don't know of any that are water activated.
Glyn
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BailingBen

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2015, 04:52:20 PM »

Water activated ones work like auto lifjackets , 3 seconds or so under water and they activate


I found this

An EPIRB can be activated either manually or automatically when the EPIRB comes into contact with water.

Manual activation brackets will cover the water sensors, preventing them from activating the EPIRB if, for example, a wave breaks over the boat, and keeping it in a handy location should you need to access it quickly.

Auto Float-free housings, automatically deploy the EPIRB when submerged to a depth lower than 2 - 4 metres in the sea. They work by means of a Hydrostatic Release Unit which cuts the EPIRB free from its housing, causing it to activate. The EPIRB can also be removed from the auto housing to be activated manually. EPIRB PLB
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Captbearuk

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2015, 04:59:22 PM »

There you go, you can always learn something.
They do attract attention when activated though, so accidental activation is frowned upon. When we send ours for battery replacement we actually wrap the whole thing in tinfoil :-) just in case it's activated during shipment. And there is the urban legend of someone stealing one which accidentally activated and the Air Sea Rescue helicopter ended up hovering over a block of flats in Glasgow :-)
Doesn't have to be true, but you get the idea.
Glyn
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BarryM

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2015, 07:08:57 PM »

Glyn,
I'm not so sure that the missing EPIRB is an urban legend. I first read about it in the early-80's and I understand the SAR helo tracked it to Lowestoft. I believe it was in one of the local papers.

Barry M
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dpbarry

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2015, 07:15:39 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up dpbarry , I thought they were just wasted activated , he life raft incident , was he still in port ?  Many people I know keep there life rafts locked up or cabletied whilst in port to stop people nicking them , I guess it's just rembering to unlock them when you head out



Kk


Hi kk..


The vessel in question was a commercial fishing boat.  Its a sad thing in todays society that lifesaving equipment has to be locked up. Same as lifebuoys at harbours and waterways. If you are caught tampering with any lifesaving equipment, the courts should dish out a hefty fine or jail sentence. I once had to remove a lifebuoy from the water at one of my local harbours. I told the council it was being relocated to a friends house at start of harbour so everone could see it was there and safe. A lot of months later, my friend and i had to use it to rescue a young lad who was throwing stones into the hardbour... He forgot to let go of the big stone he was throwing. I slid down the side of the harbour wall and held him against it whilst my mate dropped the lifebouy down to us and he dragged us up to the slipway. Don't wish to think what would have happened if we hadn't been in that area and ther was no lifebuoy. 😳
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dpbarry

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Re: Couple more boat tragedies
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2015, 07:19:00 PM »

There you go, you can always learn something.
They do attract attention when activated though, so accidental activation is frowned upon. When we send ours for battery replacement we actually wrap the whole thing in tinfoil :-) just in case it's activated during shipment. And there is the urban legend of someone stealing one which accidentally activated and the Air Sea Rescue helicopter ended up hovering over a block of flats in Glasgow :-)
Doesn't have to be true, but you get the idea.
Glyn


When in CG, One of our guys tracked an epirb down to an army baracks in N. Ireland. Using his electronic wizardry, he homed in on the actual locker it was in. To say the guy was embarrased was an understatement. 😊
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