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Author Topic: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180  (Read 41835 times)

warspite

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Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« on: March 13, 2015, 03:22:05 PM »

Decided a couple of months ago to buy another Victory, this time I want to make it work, 1. by not having it fitted with a underwater fin or motor, ideally all the weight inside and the mast a lot lighter than previously to reduce the counterbalance effect, sails would probably be furled but for those at deck level.
Just need advice for the best way to do this, yes, all weight at the lowest point and equally distributed, lightest servo(s) to pull the sails left and right etc, was actually thinking of using the kits masts with 1-1.5mm brass tube bonded to it to give some strength.
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plastic

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 11:12:35 AM »

I built this model many years ago - I seem to remember it had an awful lot of plastic above the waterline - please post photos of how you make this work.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 05:37:39 PM »

well I am relenting and showing a photo of the ship in the test tank, it has the fin fitted and is cumbersome to fit and remove, ideally I would prefer to remove it completely, so that is why I am looking into reducing the weight topside.
It took nearly 250-300g to work at the length it is, she's sailed only once with this fin, and although it did work the weather was 1. too cold and 2. not enough of a breeze to give the results needed to see if it worked correctly, a gust did give the chance of working but it went into reverse.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 01:46:31 PM »

I built this model many years ago - I seem to remember it had an awful lot of plastic above the waterline - please post photos of how you make this work.
The vessel shown is what I call the 'Royal Soveriegn', after looking at the names of 100 gun ships of the line - decided to call this the least inocuious named vessel, it is a Airfix 1:180 scale plastic kit, with a keel fin weighing about 250-300g painted black.
the kit is generally built with all but the mast sections and ports closed - in fact the 'crew' is actually constructed from the guns  :D , the masts are constructed from brass tube and rod, the weights did not really seem that excessive when completed, the bow sprit and a couple of davits are in brass to ensure their survivability in normal use.
Masts are sections built up from different diameters of brass tube soldered together, the spars are again sections of brass tube based on the diameter of the plastic spars and are passed through the masts and soldered together, the for and main mast are connected together using aircraft 2mm rod linkage connected to a standard sized servo (it's what was in stock), the rudder is a micro servo as is the receiver, a hitec feather.
as stated i want to build this one so that all the weight is inside the vessel so obviously the masts have to be lightened, the existing masts are really not straight enough or strong enough to be used, i think it would not take much to deform them in use, strengthing them with brass rod might be possible though hiding this could be interesting. the spars would be an interesting problem, how to incorporate brass rod or tube into a small section of plastic
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 10:37:47 AM »

Re examined the original masts from the kit, other than the top sections being a little flimsy for my liking, they would still be acceptable for furled sails at the tops and the main and middle ones still operating, the bowsprit would be brass again to take knocks.

The sails would have to be fitted differently, definitely sew an overlocker stitch along the edges to make it neater, but not sure if it would detract from the effect as the stitch would be bigger than scale - plus I don't sew.

Getting back to the masts, the only odd thing is to make the rotating part of it flush with the deck and then it shaped to accept the existing plastic profile, so that if it does break it can be replaced with the spare set or a completely redesigned version in a tougher material.
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Brooks22

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2015, 04:29:24 AM »

I use wooden dowels for masts and spars. Wood is light and stiff, making it better for spars than plastic or brass. I find that a weighted fin keel is a necessity. It's easy to rc the braces, probably easier than rotation of masts.

Here are a couple threads that may give you ideas:

Meatbomber's footy brigantine:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1110506

My topsail schooner w/braces for topsail and sheets for mainsail:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1071509

Hope this helps. Email me at bkmart@hotmail.com if you have questions.
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tigertiger

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 07:27:17 AM »

For masts, dowels are good. If you can find a softwood dowel, or make them, these may be better than hardwood. Hardwoods can be brittle and have less flex in them than softwoods. Softwoods have some flex and are more able to take the strain without snapping.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 01:17:08 PM »

Here is the fore main and mizzen created for Soveriegn - IN BRASS - there weights were that excessive really, what I am trying to do is shift that weight prodimently inside the vessel to reduce the keel fin, the plastic actual masts for the vessel are about - at a guess - 10% of the weight, when you add the sails and thread etc, maybe another 5% - the bowsprite was 22g, the foremast 33g, the main mast 39g and the mizzen 50g, these weights included sails and in the case of the mizzen took the feather receiver and hitec servo into account.

dowel would be similar to what I did in brass, where the detail of the kit would detract, it looks like I need to put the hull together with the changes for supporting/sealing the deck, and install the kits masts, then adding the weight in the hull to see if I can get it to stay upright - after the servo, battery and receiver.

There's not a lot of room to remove the battery, so that is situated at the rear, but the removal of the engine as found on the sovereign will help with that.
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tigertiger

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2015, 04:49:16 PM »

Is the keel fin going to be removable? If not I suggest you make it so, in order that you can replace it with a longer or heavier one if needed.
With a boat of such a small scale, you really can't get away without one. Even if you used platinum (twice the weight of lead by vol) as ballast.


When designing the keel and bulb, think about the waters you will sail it in. The main consideration is weeds, as it will affect the placement of the keel bulb, and this will affect the keel fin design.
There is info on keel design and build in this book http://gb.trapletshop.com/an-introduction-to-radio-controlled-scale-sailing-models-by-phillip-vaughan-williams it is half price at the moment, but you might also try the library service.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2015, 05:20:21 PM »

The original vessel sovereign - shown above - has a 250-300g keel fin that is removable, on you tube, someone built a wasa and sailed it in their swimming pool, using just a couple of coins as ballast.
 
This vessel is attempt number two, using the original masts and an attempt to lose the keel fin, whose depth is - yes - a weed trap.
 
if in the end a keel fin is needed, i just will have to figure out a way of fitting one that is not as bad as sovereigns.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 09:49:23 PM »

Well I am resurrecting this again, so to get into it I am making the crew, first of the officer and men of the marines, first the officer and then all present and correct the men, quality of the web cam is rubbish so will have to take phone pictures - plus they will look better with paint on them.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 09:54:39 PM »

just another 109 crew members to go  :D
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Klunk

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2016, 02:05:56 PM »

have you thought about making the masts out of carbon fiber rod? also the sails could be made of silk or  ripstop nylon.
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Kipper

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2016, 04:29:14 PM »

I agree with Klunk about the masts & yards, the mast on my Micro Magic is 5mm o/d carbon fibre tube & it can stand
a fair gust without problem.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2016, 07:38:00 PM »

Never considered it to be honest, thing is I want to use the original kits masts, with all the detail etc., as mentioned above, there is not a lot of pressure exerted, depending on the weight of the final model, the issue I have been racking my brain over in the last week, is, how do I keep the mast solid (using the same holes the kit uses but adjust the spars with cord, obviously with the mast adjusted to have a 'U' clip staple inserted at the spars height then the spar has a 'U' clip inserted on top so that with sufficient clearance it doesn't allow the spar to move left or right in sliding out of the mast clip, so acts like a locking mechanism, but with sufficient clearance on the mast clip it allows the spar to rotate backwards and forwards about the mast, the sketch is to explain it, the dark u clip is the lock on the spar the white clip is through the mast.

Next would be how to adjust the spars by cord, the foremast and main mast main spars would be connected using cord so when one is turned the other turns (the length of the foremast would be the distance between the connections on the main mast spar so they turn the same), as would the middle spars on the foremast and main mast, again linked to allow them turn at the same rate.

The issue is turning them, so the solution I have thought might work is to run cords from the linkages on the foremast main and middle spar to the main mast at the side of the mast and then run them down the mast, under the deck to say a sail winch, now the obvious thing is that the distances are wrong so the link on the foremast main spar has to be at the distance of the middle foremast spar, then both will run the same distance and therefore run round the winch, both would then run up through the deck to the same point on the other side of the main mast and onto the foremast spars - phew that was long winded.

Now - how to turn them through 90 degrees, hhmm, see if I can flare out the ends of some plastic tube or chamfer the inside so no sharp edge, then heat it and bend it to create tubular bends, 4 off, two for the main and two for the middle spars, hide them under the flat areas when the masts change section, same for through the deck to the inside.

Is this a good way of doing it, the scale is miniscule and I don't know if its feasible - ever since the purest didn't like me turning the masts - ' oh that's not the way you do it, it's supposed to be by a sail servo and winches', well I did the sovereign by turning the masts and that worked - well, sort of, it does mean that the detail is not there, so for this I am trying to keep the masts stationary and rotate the spars - I will try and photo with my phone rather than the web cam, resolutions better.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2016, 08:46:19 PM »

here is a better picture of the marine contingent, also with the standard scale of a paint tin for comparison -  the fore main and mizzen masts, they are glued together so will need prizing apart to fit the parts 142, 158, 176, the spars are not glued and are just a tight fit, but you get the sense of scale that I am trying to work to, the brass versions are exact size replication.
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petesubman

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 08:24:22 AM »

Hi  have you thought about drilling out the thickest of the masts and inserting a steel rod  as a stiffener  or if you really want keep the original masts  cut them in half make a channel in two halves add steel rod glue back together, or as was suggested  carbon or fg tube regards pete
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 09:58:02 AM »

Hi, petesubman, yes I thought about 'inserting' a stiffener, trouble is length, a small diameter drill bit being up to 50-75mm long is impossible to find, slicing it in two would also be difficult due to the width being about 5-8mm wide 1. without shattering the plastic 2. keeping the cut straight 3. my abilities being what they are, lol.

The other option was to bond a steel rod / brass tube (its amazing what dia brass rod can be about 1mm in dia meter) up the back of the main parts of the mast, then it's disguising it, this is the best option, so looking at doing that.

its the swivelling of the spars and how to stiffen them up that a challenge now, I suppose I could bond more brass tube to it, which seems to be the better option.

The marines have half their trousers on now, later I will complete the front painting, once dry I can do the tunics and later the faces and hands and then the final finish with black - deep joy, in between the ships captain will get his legs replaced and then I will build Nelson, and as many crew as possible.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2016, 12:45:09 PM »

Ok, opening the box, the overall opinion of the A50049 kit 1:180 HMS VICTORY (The National Museum version) compared to the 09252G HMS VICTORY (1815-2015 version) is that the quality is better - Soveriegn was built using 09252g.

Although I like 09252g's style of box, the A50049 box quality and artwork is better, the paper work and the packaging of the bits are also better in quality.

The instructions are essentially the same though do look better, the shrouds instructions are on a separate sheet (though still as complex as before) and there is a safety instruction leaflet and sales leaflets included. the flags are on thicker paper than 09252g's, but this wasn't designed to be a rc boat, so will have to look at getting some copies from Sheldon Cooper after watching 'fun with flags'.

Big quality difference with the vac formed sails - in this they are from a thicker material and show the detail that was lost on 09252g's, very impressed.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2016, 01:08:15 PM »

WOW, after opening the bag, there is a definite difference in quality with the kit, lighter in colour and a lot crisper, time will tell if the fit is better.

I bought some 1/16" 1.58 Dia. aluminium rod, this is going to be bonded to the mast to create rigidity, at the moment I was thinking to the rear but on reflection I am putting it on the front of the masts to hide it behind the sails, once painted it should blend in better.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2016, 01:37:34 PM »

I've just fitted the shroud frame together, this is far better than 09252g's, which was a pain to assemble, the same fault is still present with the frame, in that when creating the shrouds you are supposed to wrap the thread around one side as you move down the horizontal notches, how, when a bobbin is bigger than the gap left as you move down the frame and the two horizontal stiffeners get in the way, its in black so its difficult to see black thread or brown thread if you decide that you don't want to use the thread supplied (ratlines are black not white or dark brown hemp coloured I would think).

So I have to work out how much thread I need and wind that onto a small bit of sprue so I can weave it through the body of the frame between the lines, if they made the frame sides wider to be stronger ie not bend, and removed the two stiffeners then that would help, so I will see if I can do a shroud without modifying the frame.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 07:38:52 PM »

Well mayhemmers, the marines got finished last night, not that happy, but at 1/180 (11-12mm high) they will look ok on board, now just to finish Nelson, the captain, 1st lieutenant, and two 2nd lieutenants, 3 powder monkeys, and then the remaining various crews - 64 of which are just for the guns.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2016, 08:39:00 PM »

Well the following is the remainder of those done, in order Nelson, Captain, 1st Lieut. 2nd Lieut, 2nd Lieut Jnr, powder monkey 2 bucket, powder monkey 1 bucket and runner - awww, in e cute, all from the family related to joseph merrick
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2016, 11:17:18 PM »

At that scale they are perfectly acceptable especially as people would notice the rigging being wrong long before they started picking holes in your sculpting. Not that your rigging is going to attract critisism.

Whilst time consuming, could you make your own shroud frame incorporating modifications?
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2016, 06:36:33 PM »

I could, but I will use the ones supplied, with the left one modified it's just about acceptable for the victory with the top stiffener removed, i'll perceveir with the new one. I have another 21 members of the crew to build from the bits from sovereign, but I am going to do a little bit of cad to illustrate the crew build, just in case anyone's interest in how I did it (badly).  {-), oddly they never explain whether the collected strands at the top just lie on the frame or pushed together so that they sit inside the upright that produce the XYZ hole frame.
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