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Author Topic: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180  (Read 44440 times)

warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2016, 08:09:07 PM »

Well, the pc has finished updating the main update, since I have just installed the MS Office, that has its own updates, deep joy.

here is a photo of the second test where the eyes were temporily fitted, the next test will be with them screwed into the wood separately.

next is the test tank in place and 90% filled for the test to sovereign to create a new smaller sail board, that test will allow the Victory stability test to be more ideal.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2016, 12:28:22 PM »

Well here is the first update for the sailboard assessment test - what happens here helps with the Victory.

To start - Sovereign

Next - The existing sail board, as you can see the weight is 356g, it ghosted about this and 359g.

A standard unistrut galvanised washer, the screw being used for the test ( I thought I had one that was half the length of the sail board but that was a different thread, this one is 50mm long, the other washers are also galvanised and make up the remaining weight of the sail board.

The water line is reached with the existing sail board, in fact its just under the water line , and she is very stable vertically, and like a scene from jaws, the sailboard in the test tank.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2016, 12:32:54 PM »

Here is the missing photo
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2016, 02:06:30 PM »

Well that didn't go exactly to plan. :D

The similar weight on the shorter screw, and she heeled right over, half expected due to the moments of inertia, but so much so quickly, then I straightened the weight M10 holes in an M8 screw, the attached photo is the current weight, I initially had the weight down as shown using the wire to move the weight down to the bottom of the bolt, the whole weight is now about half the way down the sail board but the stern was down quite a lot and she was a lot lower overall ??????, not sure how considering the weight is less or equal, this weight is even less at 299g as I took a unistrut nut off, I know shifting the weight forward, eventually will help.

Well I took another 53g off by a nut, and she almost keeled over completely, so its back on, she is well up at the nose and  a large circular washer was removed as well, so whatever the weight of the attached bits is then that's the weight that gets made up in lead at that depth, it cannot be any worse than what was used before, the use of brass masts is not going to make this a comparative test, but it does help in knowing that the worst case is at 50mm below the hull - 233g or there about is sufficient to keep her upright and possibly stable.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2016, 02:30:42 PM »

Here is sovereign at here new water level, as you can see shifting the weight forward will level things back to neutral condition and the change in condition will not be any different to that previous, drat, was hoping that the level would have been at least at the required water level or just above, now I have to create the new sailboard and hope that it follows the same trim setting as this then the fun really begins with a wind test, to see if she heels to much.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2016, 05:34:55 PM »

Wow even with the threads separated the pull required is quite an effort, even with pulleys I think the effort would require the services of a large servo torque, the idea being considered is being shelved as the mast could not accommodate the force required to do it, the only option is a simple dual pull ie for 100mm pull it has to be pulled 50mm in the opposite direction (take out the hook on the right of the photo).

so internally I have to provide a 50mm lever over the 45 travel of the servo arm and translate this to a vertical movement through the deck,
 if everything was the same distances then ok but the amount of error in the outside pull being the same distance as the servo arm would defeat the object, unless I am over thinking this, that an arm on each side of the mast rising up and down pulling the thread the distance the servo moves will still give sufficient travel about the pivot to effect enough change, if tight enough then the wind will not pull it suffiently enough to change its angle. I will sketch it to demonstrate.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #81 on: May 08, 2016, 07:16:34 PM »

just made the replacement keel bulb, just need to fix it in the position it will sit based on the thread of the bolt, and trim it accordingly. Now i'll do the sketch.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #82 on: May 08, 2016, 09:45:32 PM »

Here is the sketch, the idea that both angles give different lengths is ok, as if the same is repeated on the other side of the mast then the opposite length applies, so they both balance each other out, but how to translate this to outside of the ship, if the linkage was a solid one, say a thin piece of brass rod (either side) and the thread was only on the outside if the thread breaks then its easily repairable, whereas, if it is inside and breaks it cannot be rectified.

Soooo - if the thread fixing point is the same on the spar as that on the servo arm (horn), then the smaller the radii the harder it is to ensure it is tight and does not deflect any more than a degree or so, to tight and its ability to rotate about the mast will be restricted, the object is to rotate the spar - not tie it down. Then I have to operate the upper spar in much the same way, easy enough if there was room to run another line up, but that's not possible so the plan is to do the control lines as shown.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2016, 08:18:06 PM »

well after careful head scratching, and getting splinters, rotating a servo arm under the deck with a movement being translated up through the deck at the main mast is not currently feasible, not with my building skills and equipment (oh to have the resources that some have and others like me aspire to  %) ).

new plan, the mizzen deck is always going to be removable - soooo - why not affix the drum servo here, to it's underside and transfer the thread up through the deck either side of the mast or the areas at the sides, the arrangement that is being thought about, is the ends are at a set distance from the deck with a hook, and the bit being threaded up the mast and then on to the main mast is as before, using another hook and tension adjustment by the tent guide rope method.

Also difference is that the shrouds are connected using a better method than sovereign, fixing the deck is the same as sovereigns, tension on the through deck rope - hummm, that's a challenge. I may have to surgically alter the servo to get it to fit, but there is never any dimensions of the servo and its drum on a drawing, so will have to do a hunt for the info to see if it fits.

I will have to also consider how to fit the battery and the receiver, although that can be attached anywhere inside with the right leads, here is a sketch of a standard servo and its relation to the mizzen deck.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2016, 07:50:51 PM »

Found something that might work as a tensioner, a pen spring (two required), this type are quite long, about 27mm, full compression is 10mm.
Next is to sketch up the arrangement, I have two ideas, one is just to keep the cord under tension inside a tube, the other is to utilise the test arrangement to provide the pull and double the cord travel, one unit where when one side pulls the other releases, it needs sketching up to give a better idea, its making suitable pulleys to make it work.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2016, 07:55:52 PM »

I am looking forward to they photos :-))
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2016, 11:20:56 PM »

Not sure if this easy to explain, but the concept is, as the servo arm rotates 90, it passes through three points the start the middle and finish obviously, but the start of one thread is the end of the other thread, so the cyan, yellow and green start at the top and pull down the thread, this can be the port or starboard, whereas the blue, magenta and red also start at the top but the thread is released at the same rate as the other thread and because it loops at the mirror wheel at the bottom, the thread is turned through 180 and follows the same path as the other thread, in all cases, it's a single pull with turning points, with loose wheels as pulleys, the friction could be minimised hopefully, so for the 19mm pull it is estimated to be 38mm travel of the thread, in reality it may be that due to the constrains, the radii of the horn and therefore the pull may be a lot less, but a more accurate detailing of the area, may also require the use of a smaller servo, one test will be to assemble the main mast and main spar and see what the arc is when pulled (I haven't tried this yet - oops).

I also believe that if the turning point is employed at the top and just below, then the whole thing can be turned through 90 rather than a downward action, so the servo can be horizontal (though a standard servo is still very big for the area I have).
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2016, 06:18:52 PM »

I was going to ask a question on the sail boards bulb, but I have decided to just leave it as it is for now and just paint it, which will be when the araldite has cured over next week. the new sovereign bulb consists of a 22mm x 66mm length of copper pipe, with a steel bracket up the middle of the inside, encased in lead, the bracket has been shortened and has a M6 x 100mm coach bolt fitted through the remaining hole in the bracket, it's been encased in araldite. not sure about the thread - whether to encase that in epoxy or araldite to ensure is smooth, ideally the next part would be to create a new stand and therefore I can support sovereign properly with the bulb permanently glued in place, the upshot also is that this experiment didn't really help in deciding what to do for Victory, other than my original intension - so.

Victory has had some very thin strips of plastic card run along the areas where the gun deck will sit, two reasons, a platform to stop the deck falling through when the stability test is done, it also stops the main deck falling through as well and will allow the main deck to just sit on top whilst the mast when inserted into there respective holes, will then sit and be supported as they would otherwise be.

All the masts fit into their holes and I have confirmed that the spar rotates about one of the mast hooks, to quite a large degree to be honest, though there is a slight worrying way it does it, I would say the angle is about 70-75 about the centreline, (140 - 150),  but the spar drops to one side or the other, the top mast will level this off hopefully - even if it does not rotate, being fixed, the large half circle part of the clip struggles to get around the hook, but I will get some photos of this later to illustrate it, I haven't done much as I have been trying to get my head around the servo issue or more to the point the pulley issue, the servo radius is easy to do, its not having the time this week to search out the parts to make reasonably decent pulleys with the bits I have and then test the idea, I don't think the tension is going to be an issue, the amount of 'sail' is miniscule compared to the yachts most on this bit of the forum deal with, the amount of rotating the sails on this will be doing, amounts to no more than say an A4 piece of paper.

Without photo's it's a bit difficult to explain.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2016, 07:02:42 PM »

So - here is some photo's,

Here is the new sovereign bulb, a weed catcher as the bulb will be forward of the fixing point unless I attach the thread to a bar close to the hull projecting to the front, something else to add weight or I just drill a hole and araldite it in position, that's a possibility.

The Mast and spar the next couple are the mast and spar as it rotates about the hook, as you can see, for the hoop to turn it has to pass through the hook so its movement is restricted, so I would recommend a piece of wire or another hoop fitted vertically as a linkage, and then all three masts.

The hull has these strips fitted, they still need a couple of webs fitting to their undersides to flatten them out and add some rigidity but they should prevent the deck from falling through, and when the time comes to fix the deck it will help in creating a seal underneath.
 
The way I am going to do the test for stability will mean the fitting of the two hulls together, to do this rather than fully gluing them or trying to seal them with tape like I did originally for sovereign, I decided to clamp the edges of the keel with bull clips, then, place a strip of the styrene over the joint to connect the two hulls together, its sacrificial, to separate the hulls, just cut along the centre of the strip on the inside and they will fall apart, this will fully seal the inside from water ingress, hopefully they will be strong enough to stay together without tearing and all the bits end up in the tank, using two pieces of spare sprue, cotton will be tied to the ends and passed under the strip at the front and back, creating a washing line between two points under the boat, from this I will hang the weight to test the stability etc, as the bits will be in their actual locations then the trimming should mean the brass keel insertion will be in the right place, I am thinking of creating a special sailboard where the rudder is incorporated, therefore keeping the large rudder under the vessel and the servo to operate it on the CoG.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2016, 07:12:03 PM »

No one has mentioned if the pulley arrangement is feasible, any comments would be welcome, in theory it should work, to be honest the servo needs to be reduced in size as its far to big for the space I have, I do have a couple of small servo's but I am unsure if they are man enough to cope, so the test has to include the smaller servo's working up to the standard 2003.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2016, 08:41:17 PM »

Eek. I wish I could help but without actually building a test piece I cannot think it out.Any help for Warspite would be appreciated I am sure.

I would suggest making simple pulleys out of discs of card or plastic just to proof test some of your ideas and mount them onto a piece of board.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2016, 09:06:31 AM »

One idea for pulleys was to use the brass ferruls found with servo mounting kits, have them rotate on a suitable screw that's been threaded into the suitable thickness servo horn, the issue here is they are swaged at one end only so may need to solder two end to end, will see what the feasibility of this is later today.

So prepping the new bulb for the sovereign and then coating it with black once cured enough.

Today since the suns out I may have a go at painting the outside of the hull with the M24 yellow, it's growing on me and even if a little bit 'shiney' if not actually gloss, it wont matter, the new cheap spray gun is going to get christened  :embarrassed: :D :D :D
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2016, 10:59:24 AM »

wow, thanks for the link, will have a serious think about that, (not really keen on ebay), may be a serious contention, if i can get my paypal account back up and running. :D 
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2016, 09:13:24 PM »

Well, paypal wont let me in so will look again when I have more time. :D

So - sprayed the hull with Matt 24, first time in 30+ years I have used an air brush, not a bad result, the paint did go a little matt so reasonably happy, sprayed the bulb for sovereign while I was at it, and it will still get its black coat later, then there is the photo's of the inside temporary internal seal, the cotton is for the hanging of the stability weights, I also revisited the main deck and with the black pastel darkened off the deck, to me its a lot better now, then the vessel in the water with the bull clips still attached, even removed she stays vertical, all I have to do now is package up each of the masts and sit the decks in position with as much of the remaining kit in their respective locations, this includes a servo for the rudder and one for the proposed control services. but that will require it to be tested first.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2016, 09:15:42 PM »

did note that one of the strips of rod had come off, if you look at the left hull, you will see the part having curled up, will replace it later.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #96 on: May 16, 2016, 06:46:02 PM »

Did you fix it before taking the piccies? I cannot see the curled up rod of which you mention. Coming along well.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #97 on: May 16, 2016, 08:34:21 PM »

Top picture, bows towards you with right hull on left and Left hull on right  :}

right hull (left side) - bottom row of guns third port along above its top edge.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #98 on: May 16, 2016, 08:37:15 PM »

I know the detail is a little over the top (and its not finished yet) but it's a way of trying out my skills again, never went this far with other boats and I still have to paint the black yet - oh deep joy
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2016, 04:05:17 PM »

Well the latest update on the sailboard for sovereign, it's been attached for a week, and other than the water level dropping due to normal evaporation, the boats not heeled or done anything than float around the tank, she is quite stable surprisingly ----- and dusty.

Next job will to be work out the infill between the keel and the new bulb for a plastic card piece, I am hoping Victory won't be as heavy and require as deep or heavy bulb as this, still have to support the thin web of plasticard and then put the bits of the internals in place - once I have decided what I am doing for the rudder and the sail control, it all boils down to how much tension it will need on a std servo to pull the cords, I am thinking it wont take much, but the test needs to be done.

Due to some other things going on - this may not get done till next weekend.
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