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Author Topic: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.  (Read 4663 times)

dodes

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Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« on: March 18, 2015, 07:59:52 PM »

Anyone see the programme on channel 4 recently called Horizon, this one was on the present Defence Forces and the recent cuts and how their future equipment supply is going. Found it interesting myself, the new carriers though fitted to carry about 35 planes and 6 to 12 helicopters will only carry about 2 planes and about 6 helios. There are at present an Admiral for each commissioned vessel, the other forces have a similar problem with senior officers. Plus they only intend to purchase about 45 FW35;s when they have ironed out their problems and there where moves to cancel the planes in the USA because of the high overrun costs and the length of time to get them in service. But the programme was really scathing of Politicians, especially over the scrapping of Nimrod, apparently they where asking our fishing fleet to report the presence of Russian Warships in our waters! Though I remember that Soviet subs regularly used to penetrate the inner Hebrides, but then the RN was watching and used to record their underwater peculiarities.   
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2015, 08:27:50 PM »

Hi Dodes


I think you mean either Channel 4's Dispatches or BBC2's Horizon program. I don't think there is Channel 4 Horizon program.
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Nick B

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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 04:07:16 PM »

It came under ITV, so it must be dispatches, they are all the same to me, but you should be able to view from channel 4's replay.
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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 06:11:59 PM »

Hi Nick,
Just been on my box, and yes it is on "4 on demand", Dispatches, episode 36, series 160 otherwise the latest episode. It is about present policy's and recently retired senior officers opinions on them, plus what future acquisitions there are and their opinions on them. Plus also questions the MoDs ability to react to certain situations in the future. Otherwise a interesting programme.
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mickyrubble

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 07:51:04 PM »

I hope Putin was not watching it.
 {:-{ >:-o :(( {:-{ >:-o :(( <:(
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 08:17:01 PM »

Three things I have learnt from personal experience is don't believe a word that 1) the BBC has to say about military capabilites
                                                                                                                    2) the Sky net work has to say about the military
                                                                                                                    3) any TV documentary written about the military- as it is often missing important information or events that really happened. Or they've just made it up!


In a nut shell- don't believe a word that any of them say as they are only interested in a story whether its based on a truth or not, and its more likely something that isn't.



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Nick B

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SailorGreg

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 10:27:22 PM »

It would be nice to think that journalists in whatever area they operate strive for accuracy and balance.  Regrettably, as Nick says, it rarely if ever happens.  Just about everyone with first hand experience of a news story or a documentary topic will tell you what a travesty of the truth they are.  (Defence seems to suffer more than most from this malaise in the general press, although the trade mags (Janes Defence Weekly etc) do have a decent reputation.)

I don't know whether to  >>:-( or  <:(

Greg

Jerry C

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 11:39:22 PM »

I've been involved in many events that were reported on and after all bar one the reporting bore very little resemblance to the actual events. The exception was the reporting of Desmond Wettern, the defence correspondent for the Daily Telegraph. I shared my cabin with him on a Ton Class Sweeper for a month. He was a decent bloke and a pleasure to know. His reporting, subject to security restrictions, was honest and accurate and I've since always had great respect for him.
Jerry.

dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2015, 08:31:41 PM »

Having worked in the MoD for 37 years with close family serving in the RN, I think there was quite a lot of truth in this programme. Though I think Russia is the least of our worries today, as to Putin he is just doing his job of looking after his people, I remember years ago a comment once said about the Polaris Missiles, they were wanted here to impress both East and West!!
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2015, 09:30:43 PM »

As we say it's a matter of opinion about what the programme showed, however from a RAF point of view it hardly matched what I know about current affairs.
Don't want to upset you Dodes but the bit where it said about the aircraft carrier could carry up to 36 aircraft (JSF) but only carry 2 is absolutely rubbish. Two squadrons of 16-24 is more likely with usual complement of helos. I think the programme must have mis-understood that two aircraft would be flying off the carrier at any one time not only be carrying two! In reality if only two were being carried they couldn't do the job of CAP, bombers, and training mission as there would only be one usable at any time.
And just to say, the JSF programme is running on time as the first RAF squadron has had it's first delivery of them. See the RAF News newspaper, available at most newsagents, and it will say that 17(R) Sqn has the first four British flying F35s operating from USA.

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Nick B

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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 04:08:10 PM »

Nick, It was said 45 x planes with helos, but due to on going running costs requirements, they will probably carry only 2 x planes and some choppers, much like the old Invincible class did in later years. The old fixed wing carriers like the French have, were finally done away with in the RN on cost grounds, though the French carrier in the Gulf at present has 36 planes and is putting them to good use over Iraq, making the RAF contribution look a bit small.
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2015, 11:47:53 AM »

Nick, It was said 45 x planes with helos, but due to on going running costs requirements, they will probably carry only 2 x planes and some choppers, much like the old Invincible class did in later years.


Bit of minor niggle Dodes about 45 planes instead of 36, but my original post reply stands- its absolutely rubbish, an entire squadron would be deployed to an aircraft caarier not just 2 jets. A squadron whether Navy or RAF usally consists of between 8-12 aircraft, and since the carrier has room for two squadrons (of attack aircraft) it's common sense even for the Navy to have two squadrons on board even if one of them is an RAF squadron like the old Invincibles did. They do not just deploy two aircraft for a nine month detachment from one squadron when they can send the entire squadron.


And finally, who do hear more about on the news- the RAF or the French Navy? I'm sure you hear more about Tornados over Iraq on the news than you do about Rafales. We can do more with 8 aircraft then an entire French Navy carrier! My advice Dodes is not believe everything you are told by a TV programme or everything the Navy has to say about the RAF! I have a deep respect for the other two services but they do like to have a pop at the RAF and they get the same back again! :}
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 05:37:30 PM »

I daren't express an opinion as I will be jumped on as a warmonger(!) but I read today that a couple of Chinooks are being sent back down to the Falklands to beef up the defences. Does anyone know how they get them there? Are they loaded onto an RFA for example? I don't imagine they would be staged through Argentina!

Colin
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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 06:42:47 PM »

Hi Colin, not a clue mate the last ones went down on a large container( Atlantic !!!!!!!! ) which the Argies took out, but that could most probably be this country's next confrontation, if so I would not like to be in the armed forces!!!!, what is your thoughts on it.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2015, 06:47:12 PM »

Quote
if so I would not like to be in the armed forces!!!!, what is your thoughts on it.

Too many obligations and not enough resources!

Going down to Portsmouth tomorrow to see the Franklin Roosevelt aircraft carrier which probably carries as many aircraft as most of the RAF.

But our politicians would probably see the flight deck as a wonderful opportunity to erect buy to let housing!

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 10:50:34 AM »

Don't worry Colin- I'm just venting anger at the TV programme producers and researchers! ;)


When I was at Mount Pleasant the large stuff (such as helicopters) were flown in by Aeroflot's Antonov An124, transport via RFA would take too long- three weeks-ish compared to a 19hour flight.


Our capabilities are excellent but as you say not enough of us RAF/RN/Army lads and lasses which means a lot of us are working longer hours to keep our abilities up to our high standards but life would be so much easier if there were more of us and more resources to play with. Not that I'm complaining of course! %)
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Nick B

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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2015, 04:03:31 PM »

Hi Colin, went with a friend to see the Yank last Thursday, looking at her Flight deck, everyone's comment was " wow enough to blow the RAF to kingdom come" , I expect her running cost must be about the size of the RN total budget. Shame they are not building the new CVS's as fixed wing aircraft carriers, but then there was always the argument between the RN and RAF of who should or could project airpower overseas, though I reckon if the Falklands blows up again, they will soon find out, but then it will be too late to rectify.
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2015, 08:31:13 PM »

Christ Almighty mate!


I'd like to think you're just being argumentative with your last reply compared to being very un-British!
I don't know where to start!


I think I'll just correct your last part, you are still thinking from a Falklands War point view instead of a modern view. In 1982 we needed the carriers (not to say we don't need them today either) to retake the islands because when the argentine forces invaded they didn't really have any opposition in the air, today, if you've read my thread on my detachment to the Falklands, we have four very sophisticated British designed, British built, heavily armed jet fighters called Typhoon (and yes they are British built at BAE Warton, and certainly British designed look for BAE EAP from 1986) that are capable of carrying almost 16 air to air missiles amongst other nasty weapons of war. They are supported by a brand new Airbus A340 'Voyager' air to air refueler and currently a C-130J with 4 helicopters for the heavy work. If I were an Argentine pilot flying an ancient Mirage or a slightly updated Skyhawk I think I wouldn't tackle a Typhoon would you? And then you've got the RN patrolling the seas too with either a frigate or destroyer with a hunter-killer sub somewhere around the islands too.
I'm not saying that we wouldn't need a carrier to retake the islands if the worst case scenerio happened but come on, it's just not going to be 1982 all over again, worst case they'll get a very bloody nose best case is that they carry on with negotiations with us.
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2015, 08:54:15 PM »

Nick is quite right. The Falklands defences are on an entirely different level to what they were back in 1982 while the Argentine offensive capabilities are, if anything, weaker than they were before.

Argentina is talking about upgrading its air force from either Sweden or Russia but the reality is that the country is in severe economic difficulties and the usual sabre rattling about the 'Malvinas' is intended to distract attention from the country's economic problems. Neither Sweden or Russia will part with their hardware unless hard cash is available and in any event an air force on its own cannot invade the islands whilst a nuclear sub with cruise missiles should be able to interdict any attempts at a seaborne invasion.

Colin
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pugwash

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 10:10:51 AM »

Nick is quite right. The Falklands defences are on an entirely different level to what they were back in 1982 while the Argentine offensive capabilities are, if anything, weaker than they were before.

Argentina is talking about upgrading its air force from either Sweden or Russia but the reality is that the country is in severe economic difficulties and the usual sabre rattling about the 'Malvinas' is intended to distract attention from the country's economic problems. Neither Sweden or Russia will part with their hardware unless hard cash is available and in any event an air force on its own cannot invade the islands whilst a nuclear sub with cruise missiles should be able to interdict any attempts at a seaborne invasion.

Colin
Their PM M/s Kirchner is negotiating for Saab Gripen aircraft from Brazil but as Colin says they will not part with them without
cash up-front.  The Russians meanwhile are quite happy to give them a number of Su 24 aircraft in exchange for wheat and meat
of which the Argies have plenty.  This also circumvents the EU embargo which they placed on Russia because of the Ukraine situation.
The Argentine navy is at present in a parlous state.  Their airforce has hardly been modernised though they still have very good pilots
and some of their A4 Skyhawks are configured for air to air refuelling which does give them far greater range but as Nick says they
would be foolish to go against the Typhoons
Geoff
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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2015, 12:41:55 PM »

If it came to it, numbers will count, I do not know how many typhoons are down there, but if it comes to a war of attrition, any thing goes. Remember the Typhoon is not a new design but the last of the cold war designs and was slatted then for being a dinosaur. Malta in the last war needed air craft carriers to reinforce the RAF forces there because it was impossible to fly in from friendly air stations. The area is huge to defend with few resources, plus we had more nuc hunter killers then but it did not stop the invasion. My self I hope it is all hot air by politicians trying to hang in power using language which their country likes.
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raflaunches

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2015, 01:25:40 PM »

Aha mate you're forgetting one thing!


Remember the tenancity and fighting spirit of the British Forces- we relish in the thought of being outnumbered!  {-)
Just look at all our famous battles- Agincourt, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Battle of Britain we were massively outnumbered but fought like demons and defeated the aggressor of the time.


As regards to the Typhoon, I believe I mentioned that there were four, but remember that this environment would be perfect for a Typhoon to take on less superior aircraft like the Mirage and Skyhawk or Etentard bombers. The Typhoon was designed to be a fantastic dog fighter and have the ability to outmanouvre any aircraft or missle system in use, as to date no foreign designed or built aircraft has out done a Typhoon in mock combat even the famous F-22 Raptor.
But the chances of an Argentine invasion is very low because the condition of their current aircraft and ships is so low its doubtful they would take off and travel the distance with a weapon load without being detected and being shot down or intercepted. They may have more aircraft and ships but quality and ability is more important than numbers in modern warfare.
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Nick B

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2015, 04:50:20 PM »

Quite right Corporal  :-))
At the time of the Falklands war I had been in the RN
for 23 years and all of us greybeards used sit with a pint
in the mess on a night moaning about the young lads
joining up and the fact "It ain't the same Navy as we joined".

Those same lads went down South on ships that were not as good
as we thought and played a blinder.
Some of them lost their lives, the ones who returned, they were all heroes
Our Servicemen, underpaid, underequipped and definitely underestimated
Will do what is needed when the call comes.

Ned
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dodes

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2015, 04:48:04 PM »

Ned , could not agree more with you, armed forces have always had to make do and often come up trumps, usually because of training and something called balls.
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Netleyned

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Re: Channel 4 Horizon programme on Defence.
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2015, 05:01:51 PM »

You are right there Dodes.
We had Portland Workups back then
Six weeks for every ship with a new crew.
Ships submarines and aircraft making life nasty
and Seariders making mayhem on board.
Foreign Navies sent their ships as it was the best
Naval training they could get.

Ned
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