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Author Topic: Brushless motors  (Read 9620 times)

roycv

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Brushless motors
« on: July 24, 2007, 02:38:58 pm »

Hi all, I have a brushless motor in a small gearbox and an ESC.  I bought these things from Hong Kong with a view to   trying something new.
The supplier said that the ESC will run in reverse as well,  but I need a programme card.  He also said that I could buy a programme card from my local model shop.  My visit on Monday did not encourage me as I am not sure he knew what my ESC was.
I looked at the details of the programme card on the store web site, which did not indicate any set up conditions for running reverse.  I know that the items I bought are for flight use but it said ESC will run forwards or reverse.
has anyone any experience in this field please?
Item is on ebay, look for Compass Store, and search on program card.
All help appreciated,
Roy
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Andy

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2007, 07:37:42 pm »

When they say forward or/and reverse (on most cheap esc's ) it's motor direction they are talking about.
Swop any 2 wires from the motor/esc and the motor will rotate in the required direction .
Most flight esc's will not reverse with the TX stick.

Andy
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Bridkid

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2007, 08:59:16 pm »

Yep, as Andy says it's the motors that run in reverse not the ESC's. I have 3 ESC's and 3 different programme cards and none of them have a 'reverse' direction optoion.
Cheers,
Ian.
 8)
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kendalboatsman

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2007, 09:04:12 pm »

Just looking at the Mtroniks brushless combo and they quote forward and reverse for theirs. I would be very surprised if an electric flight had reverse capabilities though. They tend to make those as simple and light as possible.

Which model of ESC did you purchase from that store?

Clive

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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2007, 09:54:26 pm »

Some M Tronic have reverse and these defiantly do



http://www.castlecreations.com/products/barracuda-80.html

Peter
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Telstar

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2007, 11:47:51 pm »

Hi ebay have Pulso 60 esc for brushless motors, that are ,watercooled and run forward/ reverse.
I have one it works, no programmer needed.

cheers tom
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roycv

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 10:33:51 am »

Hi to all, thank you very much for your responses.

The combination I have was quite cheap, with p&p £18.  One of the things that intrigued me was the very small motor and the description saying maximum current 20 amps!  I expect I shall have to water cool it for this much power. The ESC gives a nice smooth control.

I will have a look around for a program card, but suspect it is not programmable as it does not mention this on the label, where as others do.

Rather than not use it I was thinking of having the down movement of the stick controlling a suitable relay which will reverse the motor, maybe with a light on the boat to indicate what state the ESC is in. (fwd or rev.)
regards to all and thanks again  Roy
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Jonjoe

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 08:01:49 pm »

Hi there m8
This would not be possable has ude have to physicly change the 1st and 3rd wire around while leaving the nutral one the same Who needs reverse anyway??(LOL {-)) also abit of advice NEVER RUN A BRUSSLESS MOTOR WITHOUT A ESC (eg-DIRECT 2 UR BATTERY)
Hope This Helps
Jonjoe O0  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
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Fil

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2007, 11:10:35 am »

Hi folks

Just looking at the Mtroniks brushless combo and they quote forward and reverse for theirs.

MTroniks esc are all based on a car esc as are the majority of cheap Chinese esc's that are boasting over 100 amps constant rating.  Its buyer beware!  You pay for what you get.

Phil
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Subculture

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2007, 12:15:18 pm »

I don't see any facility for making that controller reverse.

Reversible controllers require double the amount of transistors, and are therefore considerably more expensive. It's the cost of the controllers that makes brushless motors difficult to justify for the vast majority of set-ups.

Sensored controllers and motors are the only way to get good low speed control in a brushless motor. Controllers and motors are available, but they're far from cheap (Schulze offer ESC's with all these features).

Castle Creations offer fully programmable reversible controllers, but they're designed for non-sensored motors. These are okay for sport, fast scale use, but I intend to stick with high quality brushed motors for lower speed scale craft until the price of the controllers comes down. After all, if you use a good quality DC motor (i.e. Buhler, maxon, Pittman etc.) it's unlikely you'll wear the thing out.

Andy
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2007, 02:41:51 pm »


These have reverse, as far as I can tell from people who use brushless motors you can get an extra 15% run time or 15 more power for the same run time , but until someone comes up with some kind of chart that says this is equivalent to that motor its not that easy as there seems to be so many variables.

Peter

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Turborix-AE-30A-Bi-directional-Brushless-Motor-ESC-FR_W0QQitemZ300183476863QQihZ020QQcategoryZ774QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
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red181

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 10:57:31 pm »

I use brushless motors with helicopters, the difference betwen brushed and brushless in this application is chalk and cheese. Much more power, using the same battery source, and much much cooler, no sparking of brushes. They HAVE to have a compatible brushless ecs, will not work without, and generally are lipo battery powered, again, weight, important in a rc heli. Make sure before buying the esc that the motor is compatable amperage, otherwise it will keep shutting down and may not work at all. I had a quick look at that ebay store, the ecs you are looking at is not enough amps for the motors they list, also make sure the motor is an inrunner, not outrunner, that has a can that spins and the armature is fixed, onvoiusly no good for a boat!
I personally would buy in the uk, support the local model shop, and any probs you can go back. In the heli world, I have seen on other forums people have bought some junk  from overseas that could not be returned, just to save a few quid. Lipo's are a tad unstable, get hot, and have a short run time, beware!
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BridRacer

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 11:28:30 am »

also make sure the motor is an inrunner, not outrunner, that has a can that spins and the armature is fixed, onvoiusly no good for a boat!
[/quote

Sorry but i dont agree with this quote as i know of at least 6 people who use outrunners in fast electric boats myself been one of them and i know they work. i was at the nationals this year and i know that an outrunner was used by the guys that came second and third in the mini mono class see links

http://www.fastelectricsrfun.co.uk/renegaderacing/Renegaderacing.htm

http://www.fastelectricsrfun.co.uk/clubnews.htm


hope this helps

Chris

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Bridkid

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 03:45:25 pm »

Yep, got to agree with you there Chris, outrunners are fine for boats especially the small mini-oval etc racers. Bear in mind that you can get some outrunners that are inside a can so to all intents and purposes they look like inrunners but aren't. Just be careful you don't have any stray wires near the revolving can of an outrunner of course! No different to keeping them away from couplings I guess but then it's a case of safety fiirst is the key.
Cheers,
Ian.
 8)
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 04:29:53 pm »

I've got a pair of them to put in my 24" fire tender, and a couple of the 50A speed controllers above I'm going to use 9.6 volt nim's pack, is there a problem running two motors of one pack.?
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justboatonic

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 09:44:15 pm »

I've got a pair of them to put in my 24" fire tender, and a couple of the 50A speed controllers above I'm going to use 9.6 volt nim's pack, is there a problem running two motors of one pack.?

Only if your pack for the 2 motors has a low amp rating ie say 2400mah you may find the duration a little short. However, the brushless motors' efficiency will extend the run time compared to brushed motors with the same set up.

I'd suggest you need something over 4000mah battery pack.
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Bridkid

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2007, 09:54:15 am »

If you do decide to uprate your cells to 4000+ please be aware thast the IB4200 NiMh cells have been banned in certain European countries because of their tendency to explode! I have some and have had no problems but I'm afraid it is now a proven fact that they are unstable.
Cheers,
Ian.
 8)
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2007, 10:34:34 am »

Yep I read it on the BRCA web site they have the batch numbers on there in the 12th section , I will be going for whatever is not going bang at the time,( next couple of weeks)  Nick at Demon is prob where I will go.

   thanks

  Peter 
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justboatonic

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2008, 04:05:19 pm »

I was told by my usual cell supplier that the IB cells have a very low delta peak cut off. If you have these cells you should make sure your charger can handle the low cut off.

I suspect what has happened is that people have put these on any old charger that isnt sensitive enough with the resulting problems.

On another point, Lipo cells should never be left unattended when charging. If these catch alite, as its a chemical fire it can be very difficult to put out. They should be charged on a non flamable object ie brick(!) or in a special bag.
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Bridkid

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2008, 02:57:47 pm »

I have had a set of IB 4200's which I have used regularly since the beginning of 2007 without any problems and they have been charged on a Pro Peak Constellation charger. I know of fellow racers using £200+ charging units that do everything apart from steer the boat and they have managed to blow up these cells so I don't think choice of charger is the governing factor.

As for Lipos, I have been in your 'camp' for a while (justboatonic) although talking to some of the fliers I now think differently. Providing you follow the instructions you should have no problems. A fellow club member asked at a model shop for a Lipo charging bag and was told by a group of fliers in the shop not to waste his money. They had deliberatley set out to try and destroy some Lipos and get them to catch fire by overcharging, not balancing and eventually putting a blow torch to them and failed miserably. Not that I'm suggesting you go out and try this for yourselves but these guys had been using Lipos for over 5 years so the suggestion is that they know what they are talking about! Their advice was simply to check your charging instructions and double check all your settings EVERY TIME before you hit the 'charge' button. Invariably it is mistakes with the charge settings that cause the problems. I certainly will be following their advice. (Coffee break over - back in the workshop now!)

Cheers,
Ian.
 8)
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BridRacer

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2008, 03:19:43 pm »

Hi I've got to agree with Ian I think theirs been a lot of misinformation about lipos and a lot more people jumping on the band wagon saying there dangerous and that they'll blow up. I have spent a lot of time looking for info on-line about lipo's and i have read a lot of reports saying that lipos will blow up. What makes these people experts, I think the best thing to do is make our own minds up by trying them out. I was down the lake today with a lipo powered boat and had no probs with it.

Chris
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2008, 04:38:46 pm »

It's always been the same I played 12ht cars when 1200mah cells where good and everready brought out 1400mah and where banned at first and everyone in mags where putting out scare stories about cells exploding, and yes they would if you put them on a 5amp charge and walked away for an hour or so but most of the time they went hot and sizzled at you as they vented, the only cells that would bang where the ones that had been damaged and that was very rare considering that at a national event up to 140 people where hurtling cars at walls at times at 40 mph, Ive had very few cells go pop, and I must have abused hundreds of cells , at one time they where only any good for one race per weekend so if you went away to a meet you needed 10 packs to be competitive.  so until I see a pack of lipo cells go bang that i have charged Ill keep moving with time and leave the Luddites to there gel cells.

Peter
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justboatonic

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2008, 07:40:50 pm »



As for Lipos, I have been in your 'camp' for a while (justboatonic) although talking to some of the fliers I now think differently. Providing you follow the instructions you should have no problems. A fellow club member asked at a model shop for a Lipo charging bag and was told by a group of fliers in the shop not to waste his money. They had deliberatley set out to try and destroy some Lipos and get them to catch fire by overcharging, not balancing and eventually putting a blow torch to them and failed miserably. Not that I'm suggesting you go out and try this for yourselves but these guys had been using Lipos for over 5 years so the suggestion is that they know what they are talking about! Their advice was simply to check your charging instructions and double check all your settings EVERY TIME before you hit the 'charge' button. Invariably it is mistakes with the charge settings that cause the problems. I certainly will be following their advice. (Coffee break over - back in the workshop now!)

Cheers,
Ian.
 8)

Blimey! I wouldnt recommend that (not that you are recommending it).

All the advice I have read and people I've spoken to re lipo's have said if you are careful, lipo's are no problem and I agree with that. However, the thing to bear in mind is if they do catch alight, they are very difficult to put out and like any cell not properly charged ie nicad, nimh etc can explode.

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Fil

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2008, 07:39:42 pm »

I suspect what has happened is that people have put these on any old charger that isn't sensitive enough with the resulting problems.

These were a bad batch and had nothing to do with old chargers that weren't sensitive enough.

On another point, Lipo cells should never be left unattended when charging. If these catch alite, as its a chemical fire it can be very difficult to put out. They should be charged on a non flamable object ie brick(!) or in a special bag.

The only Lipo cell I have ever seen explode or combust is on the video clips freely banterred around on these forums, I have seen them puff and this would always seem to be abuse of poor quality Chinese cells being asked to discharge at far to high a rate.  The fact of the matter is I have seen Ni-cad's and Nimhs explode but never a Lipo.  Although I do agree with the advice regarding charging bags, I think that this could indeed cause more problems, as with a Lipo the first sign of something going wrong is that it puffs up, if it is encased in a charging bag or similar fire proof container the first signs of a problem will be missed, then, and only then will the charging bag have any use.  Cells of any description should not be left unattended when charging.

You can almost certainly guarantee that if there is a problem with a Lipo or indeed any other cell it will be the user who has caused it, unless as stated above a batch off duff cells has been released by the manufacturer.

I would like to hear from a forum member who has actually seen a Lipo cell combust.  Although I am not suggesting that justboatonic is criticising Lipo cells, indeed he is giving some sound precautionary advice, I am tired of people, who are constantly criticising Lipo cells when they are indeed no more dangerous than the more familiar Ni cad and Nimhs.

Phil
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justboatonic

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Re: Brushless motors
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2008, 09:16:26 pm »

Phil.

No one is criticising Lipos from what I've seen and read. But, I think people should be well aware of the safety issues required.

Im sorry I cannot agree with the comment that Lipo's are no more dangerous than nicads or nimh cells.

I suggest you and anyone else takes time to read the following and the reported incidents from a well respected electric flyer's forum.

The bottom line is be careful. I'd add that Lipos do need an extra degree of care.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1584
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