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Author Topic: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions  (Read 4188 times)

Bob K

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1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« on: June 03, 2015, 11:54:56 am »

1763 Revenue Cutter Questions

I would like to ask some maybe silly questions regarding a longer term project.  I have never built or operated a model sailing ship.  From those Iíve seen at the club all the drums and lengths of line snaking about the deck look like a black art.
I really fancy an HM Revenue Cutter, based on the Caldercraft HMS Sherbourne. ie: it has to be a scale warship, not a 'featureless' yacht.   The Caldercraft kit is too small, but at 71 quid could be used to construct scaled up parts.  To be a practical pond sailor it needs to be at least 50% larger and built for the water rather than mantelpiece.
Kit:  http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/caldercraft_cutter_sherborne.html

Questions:
  • It is going to need a keel and keel weight. How do you establish what size and weight?  Should it be detachable, and if so how?
  • Sails:  Normally, a single masted square rigger with a huge gaff / spanker, jib sails, main course and topsail.  There is probably a triangular sail between the top of the gaff and mast head.  I understand that square rigged ships do not sale sail well so will leave the topsail furled and main course partly reefed.  Practical?
  • I assume I will need a normal servo for the rudder, plus a special drum servo for controlling the angle of the gaff.  Do I need extra controls / lines for the front jib sails too?

Into the unknown here, although I have built several motor powered ships before.

Bob K
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tigertiger

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 01:40:28 pm »

Hi Bob


I highly recommend that you read this book http://gb.trapletshop.com/an-introduction-to-radio-controlled-scale-sailing-models-by-phillip-vaughan-williams. At 9.99 it will give you all your answers.


Donor hulls, have a look at plans for the Louis Heloise http://gb.trapletshop.com/louis-heloise which is a transomed fishing boat, or the Waverly Y2K hull. Or as you suggest you just could scale up another model. If so, try trawling the net for just the plans that someone may have left over.


Will it need a fin keel?
If less than about 800mm, then most probably it is essential.
Larger scale models can be ballasted, but may take up to 30 lbs of lead. Although you can stretch the hull vertically to give you more depth. Or attach a fin keel.


Your sail suggestion is practical.


Servos. Rudder correct.
Sails, there are lots of options. If you want to control the yards then you will need drum winch and pulleys, and a cats cradle of rigging. But this can be put below deck.
If you go for a rotating mast, then you can control the other fore and aft sails on a single sail ARM servo. I am controlling 4 sails on a single sail arm servo on my schooner.


Again, all of your questions are covered in the book, and at under a tenner, it is well worth the investment. There are other slightly more expensive books on the Traplet website, but to my mind not as good.
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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 02:16:15 pm »

Many thanks for your prompt and detailed reply.  Sail is all new to me.

Firstly, I have ordered that book.

My thoughts with reducing the square rig sails to furled or largely reefed was to reduce their effect. a rotating mast sounds interesting.  Also, in not having a two mast square rigger which could be very difficult to control.

Hull length approx. 700 mm as I want to keep o/a length to 1 m max, which will also mean 1 m height, without the keel fin.  Difficult to transport.

Lots to think about.  Thanks

Bob K
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tigertiger

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 03:22:33 pm »

If hull is 700 then you most likely will need a separate fin keel.
You can also set up your rig so that you can drop the mast easily and remove the bowsprit.
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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 04:50:36 pm »

Interesting coincidence, or major mark up?

I was admiring a small model of HMS Sherbourne in the Antique Store House in Portsmouth Dockyard on Sunday, which got me researching into building one.  I found the Caldercraft 'beginners level' model kit for £71.  Just now I've seen this advertised - the ship in Portsmouth - exact same dimensions, identical fittings etc, for £680.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cased-Model-of-HMS-Sherbourne-8-Gun-Royal-Navy-Cutter-1763-1-64-Scale-/300870010231

Useful detail photographs though . . .

Incidentely, the Mary Rose Hall shop had a lovely wooden model of the Mary Rose for sale, which now looks remarkably similar to the Caldercraft one.  I didn't note the price.
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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 02:16:06 am »

There will be genuine period models that are worth that much. It is possible that someone does not know the difference and has paid to much, added the usual dealer's mark up and is still asking too much. It would be interesting to see if the dealer has any 'provenance' for the model, probably not.
Option A the dealer has been taken advantage of.
Option B the dealer is trying it on.
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mrpenguin

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 11:30:02 am »

@ BobK:
From images I could find on Google of Sherbourne, she only has one small square sail and a single mast. Your idea of running the square sail furled or not installed and sailing using the fore-and-aft sails seems viable.

I would think you would need a drop keel to make it manageable to sail, particularly with a large sail area. As a guide, for a model 1 metre long I would suggest you consider a fin extending 200 to 300 mm below the hull with a couple of kg of lead on the bottom of it.  Weight and depth will depend on hull displacement and sail area/height.

Square riggers tend to be very difficult to sail upwind. If you have not sailed an RC boat before you will find the fore-and-aft rig somewhat easier to sail.
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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 03:15:55 pm »

Thanks MrPenguin:  There is a small topsail spar, and in one painting it shows a topsail much narrower at the top.  I am no expert in sailing rigs though, so intend having it furled to make operation simpler.
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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 06:24:12 pm »

Photo of 1/64 model of HMS Sherbourne with main course and topsail spars.



Nice looking ship, I think.  Not a lot of deck hatches to provide access to the RC innards though.
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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2015, 07:32:43 am »

You can make access through the deck. You can cut a panel in the hull, then put a flange in, then screw down the panel cover. This can be big enough to allow you access. But keep it as narrow as feasibly possible, as closer to the centre line gets no water (little sealing needed), and close to the scuppers would get all the water (must be very water tight).


Also you need to think if you will need to gut the frames to make space for workings.

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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2015, 09:33:11 am »

Thank you.  Interesting.
Appreciated that you have taken so much time and trouble in illustrating your reply.   :}
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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 01:38:34 pm »

...or split the hull at the waterline? That way, all the standing and running rigging could be permanent, if the sail winches are bolted to the top 'alf. Of course, it'd mean the construction would be more complicated, but that would be as nothing to the rigmaroles of Polythemus.

Andy
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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2015, 01:52:12 pm »

..., but that would be as nothing to the rigmaroles of Polythemus.

Andy

I am not going to live that down, am I ?

Splitting the hull along the waterline and keeping that watertight sounds near impossible.
I am just interested in building a scale sailing ship.
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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2015, 08:43:14 pm »

Hi Bob

FYI Orion Mouldings do a 25" GRP Naval Cutter Hull that maybe suitable for you.

http://www.orionmouldings.com/apps/webstore/products/show/3254161

With splitting the hull, there are a few people on the continent that do it this way. I have an article I can scan to show you how if your interested. The advantage is that the rigging can be left set up and you get good access to the winches below deck. I think it is much more common here to make the rigging unhook.

Regards
Duncan
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Bob K

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2015, 09:21:40 pm »

Thank you Duncan.  I shall bookmark that Orion page.  Ideal size.
I was more worried about keeping the hull watertight if split on the water line.
Please PM me the article so I can see what is involved.
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dreadnought72

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Re: 1763 Revenue Cutter Questions
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 12:26:40 am »

The split-at-the-waterline includes a sort of coffer dam rising well above the waterline. Water might get into the waterline break, but is unable to rise over the internal break (which end substantially above the waterline). It's possibly the best solution to maximise access into the guts of a small, narrow, M Class destroyer (for example!) and - although increasing the complexity of the hull's structure - would at least give you a solid horizontal surface for both halves during construction.

Andy
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