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Author Topic: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?  (Read 7372 times)

U-33

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Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« on: August 25, 2015, 05:55:07 PM »

Gentlemen,  your assistance please, if you don't mind.


I've spent the best part of the afternoon watching video footage of paddle tugs, and the one thing that stands out is that a lot of them have independently driven paddles. I was told that I shouldn't even think of setting my Glasgow up like that because it's likely to fall over...the paddle that's driving astern is going to drag the boat under.


Is this correct? I really would like mine to have independent paddles if possible, that would allow me the ultimate in manoeuvrability when on a regatta course...but, if there's a chance of sinking the boat, then I shall stick to both motors hooked up to one esc.


Anybody have any thoughts on this? Anybody done it?


Any information would be gratefully received.
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Rich

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Buccaneer

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2015, 08:22:32 PM »

I built a scratch built Paddle Tug on a pre-formed Hull a few years ago. If at all possible go for independent drive. Anybody who talks about turning the Tug over is scare mongering or has probably not built a tug with independent motors. With a paddle tug you need independent drives to steer it. Unlike a propeller driven tug you do not have any appreciable water flow over the rudder and you will need a fair turn of speed to get any steerage from it. Whilst doing this of course your tug is being driven in a straight line, probably away from the shore.

I had no problem in turning the ship in it's own length by having one paddle ahead and one astern. Start slowly and see what happens, apply a bit more power until you get worried and then back off a bit.

The most critical area to get right is the depth of the paddles, and to make sure they are the same both sides. On my first try I had unevenly aligned paddles and hence a tendency for one side to be pulled in deeper than the other - which only gets worse with a few more revs.

The best tip I was given, at one of the old Paddleducks Days, was to make sure that your shafts are in exactly the same position on each side of the hull then join them loosely in the centre with a short length of brass tube. This aligns your two shafts with each other. I actually used the brass tube as the centre bearing, file a small slot in it as an oiling hole.

John
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BarryM

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2015, 09:34:59 PM »

A general ban on independent paddle drive (with exemptions) was in force at one time for full-size paddlers but at our scales stability is not a problem. My 'Director' Class tug turns without problem with the paddles going full power in opposite directions. Go for it.

Barry M
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Nemo

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2015, 09:59:59 PM »

 My Glasgow 'Hercules' is driven by both paddles and works fine for me - steering is by rudder -end of. If you want it to turn on it's own length, why not go independent paddles, there is no problem. O0
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oldflyer2

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2015, 10:18:47 PM »

From what I have read and seen at the local pond, independent wheels are almost a must for steering. The previous owner of my Duchess of Fife gave it to me (after robbing wheels and motor) because it wouldn't turn. I have ordered the plans for the wheels and will make them independent. If I build a Director class, it will be the same.

Now, having said that, with a proper size rudder, I'm sure that a single drive system would work as well. Whatever floats your boat.

Tom
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U-33

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 01:11:54 PM »

Gents, thank you all so much for the replies, I really appreciate this. It looks as though my Glasgow will be having independent paddle drive when I get it (had to cancel collection today due to me feeling unwell, but collection is rescheduled for Friday)...fingers crossed I'll be feeling better by then.


Thanks to you all once again, good of you to take the time to reply.



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Rich

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rhavrane

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 07:18:41 PM »

Bonjour,


I will be very interested to see how a Glasgow can have independant paddles, mine has not this option and I do not know where I could install such a system : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZwIiZKMGk


Besides this, it navigates smoothly an obeys in both directions : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojEwUjFWxs4


This boat has participated to the famous French "Atlantica steam international contest" and the result was due to the pilot competency  ;)
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tobyker

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2015, 08:34:56 PM »

I understand that after independent drive was banned, due to an unfortunate accident on the South Coast when an excursion boat got athwart the swell and immersed one paddle far deeper than the other, and flipped, the only exemption allowed was for paddle tugs in Admiralty dockyards. So stick a white ensign on your Glasgow and be independent!
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U-33

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2015, 08:57:24 PM »

Yes, I'm now sold on independent paddle drive, just got to work out how to control it...tank steering would be the easiest to do, but maybe a mixer would be a better idea. Not sure yet....
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Rich

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inertia

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2015, 11:25:42 PM »

Yes, I'm now sold on independent paddle drive, just got to work out how to control it...tank steering would be the easiest to do, but maybe a mixer would be a better idea. Not sure yet....
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U-33

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2015, 03:32:47 PM »

Reluctantly I have to inform you that the purchase of the Glasgow has fallen through due to unforeseen circumstances.


Thank you all for your kind input to question, gentlemen...much appreciated.
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Rich

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dodes

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 07:46:52 PM »

With all the constant different reasons for Passenger Paddle Vessels having their paddles locked and sealed to prevent independent movements, I asked a good acquaintance of mine who has recently retired from the MAIB to research the question. I spoke to him today and he gave me what information he could gain, he went onto 3 in No sites and the reason is stability not mechanical he was saying. The reason given was when the paddlers where berthing, the passengers would all move over to one side of the vessel and if one paddle was used or both in opposite directions the combined forces could be sufficient to capsize the vessel, bearing in mind that unlike tugs these passenger boats were narrow shallow hulls built for speed, where as tugs are beamier and importantly do not carry large number of passengers. Tugs have always been exempt from this regulation and could never function in their tasks if their paddles were locked.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 08:36:31 PM »

Good points Dodes. On a Round the Isle of Wight trip on PS Waverley the passengers have a tendency to congregate on the side facing the Island to admire the views and the ship takes on a significant list. You can see the effect on the vessel's wash as one paddle digs in deeper than the other. Although they look wide due their paddle boxes, paddle steamers are indeed very 'narrow gutted' which is one reason that they used to be very fast.

Independent paddle control on a model passenger paddle steamer may not be authentic but it will certainly be more practical as the rudder is not very effective.

Whilst full size paddlers may not be very responsive to their rudders the paddles do give very exact forward and reverse control, more so than a propeller driven vessel. You can see this on the Swiss lakes where the paddlers line up very carefully to come alongside the piers and then just use a few strokes of the paddles to move ahead or astern to line up the gangway. Of course they do have plenty of practice as they provide a daily service. In the case of Waverley which visits a lot of different places, the technique seems to be to come alongside but a safe distance off and stop and then throw bow and stern lines ashore which are used to draw the ship against the pier. They do sometimes get it wrong though and the pier usually comes off worse!

Colin
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BarryM

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 10:47:28 PM »

Waverley's rudder has little effect at low speed and thus she tends to approach her berth fairly rapidly to maintain steerage and then go hard astern at the last moment before laying off preparatory to heaving alongside. As you say, on occasions the calculation of when to apply the astern movement gangs agley and thus the too close acquaintance with the quay.

BM
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Ardnave

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 11:13:28 PM »

Also important is the angle of approach to the pier/berth (as Colin said), so that a kick astern on the paddles lets the ship "slide" sideways towards the berth (gently!) Wind, tide, sea state, list of ship if passengers all on one side, all taken into account when setting up an approach.

Clark
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dodes

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2015, 09:09:53 PM »

Some time ago, I spent a fortnight working on the Balmoral as mate, when we berthed with a significant number of passengers , it was common to try to organise the passengers into two groups one port and the other starboard, then try to feed them equally to the gangway to try to keep the vessel up right, otherwise she would lean so much her rubbing band could hang up under jetty rubbing bands etc. When at full speed if you had to turn her it was in small amounts to keep her steady. I did meet an old friend who used to go master on the Waverly and he said the rudder was for steering her when she was underway in free water, absolutely no good for manoeuvring. He said approach berth at  a narrow angle, go astern at the last minute, then get your berthing ropes out quickly and spring her alongside and use the stern capstan.
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derekwarner

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2015, 02:02:01 AM »

Paddle wheelers were introduced to Australia in the mid 1800's ...essentially to carry goods on our inland river systems

Interestingly one of the better WEB sites to view some of our vessels is :o http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/Australia-PS.html

I am not aware of any early OZ paddlers with independent drive, however most were displacement type hulls, [with a high block co-efficient] of shallow draft & hence even with barn door type rudders, steer like a floating shoebox  {-)....another difference is the swept angle of rudder movement which in some cases is 180 degrees, although this was and is also to shorten the vessels overall length when accessing the lock systems .... there is an image of PS Stuart in Ships of the Inland Rivers which confirms the hard over rudder

Many still berth at speed at a gentle angle to the wharf & use hard astern as the final manoeuvre  O0 .... just as paddlers from Europe.......Derek
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slowcoach

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2015, 10:04:10 AM »

Hi all
just thought I'd chirp in with with another bit of info the Woolich ferry had independent paddles way back in the 50's for extra manoeuvability.
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bill stafford

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2015, 08:01:48 AM »

hello gents,
  my paddler , of the aussie river style, 42 inch+16 inch beam , has independent paddle wheel drives, and it has saved me on more than 1 occasion, as these paddlers don' like wind , dont  steer that well, but look lovely on the water.
the issue w aussie paddlers , is that they dont like wind, little wind on the murray , most of the time, in model size , this is even worse
 the other version that I am trying next is independent paddle drive, this time I will only stop the paddle wheel on either side ,rather than reverse it as well, as I feel this is all that is required.
the real next trick is a becker rudder ,of large size, that will help a lot w steering these beasts, as it is a stand off scale UK paddle tug ,there is no scale issues w this modification
food for thought
   bill S
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BarryM

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2015, 05:59:45 PM »

Bill,
I doubt if you will find a Becker rudder improving manoeuvrability of a paddler. Rudders of whatever type when fitted to a screw-driven ship are in the wake of the screw and thus surrounded by water travelling faster than the ship's speed. Thus directional thrust can be generated down to low ship speeds.
A paddler rudder is always surrounded by water travelling at (mostly) ship speed with the thrust from the paddles having little or no effect on rudder action. Thus the poor steering of non-independent wheel paddlers at low speeds.

The only way you are going to improve on rudder efficiency is to opt for an 'active' rudder, e.g. a Pleuger or similar. 
Regards,
Barry M
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2015, 08:52:30 PM »

Bit off topic but how does one steer a sternwheeler?
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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2015, 09:35:06 PM »

Bow rudders?

Ned
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derekwarner

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2015, 09:37:38 PM »

Usually in sets of 3...yes 3 x leading & 3 x trailing the wheel.......that's why they are called Monkey rudder's  O0 ... Derek
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2015, 09:11:03 AM »



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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Independent paddle drive...yes/no?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2015, 01:06:30 AM »

Bill,
I doubt if you will find a Becker rudder improving manoeuvrability of a paddler. Rudders of whatever type when fitted to a screw-driven ship are in the wake of the screw and thus surrounded by water travelling faster than the ship's speed. Thus directional thrust can be generated down to low ship speeds.
A paddler rudder is always surrounded by water travelling at (mostly) ship speed with the thrust from the paddles having little or no effect on rudder action. Thus the poor steering of non-independent wheel paddlers at low speeds.

The only way you are going to improve on rudder efficiency is to opt for an 'active' rudder, e.g. a Pleuger or similar. 
Regards,
Barry M

Barry,
 Are you aware that Billings produced two kits which had dual props and with a centre mounted rudder.
One was Samson II a Ocean?? going tug
 the other was Polar a fishing trawler.
Our illustrious webmaster AKA Martin may have Billings drawing of "Samson" showing rudder and prop locations
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