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Author Topic: Motor whine  (Read 3859 times)

mrlownotes

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Motor whine
« on: November 23, 2015, 04:26:05 pm »

My latest project employs a 12V car blower motor running on 6V.
Unfortunately the ESCs in my possession are causing loud motor whine. I've tried a variable frequency Electronize, but all the frequency options are just too noisy.
I'm looking for a very quiet, if not silent, ESC. I want to hear my P100 motor sounds as they should be without an infernal background whine.
After researching, I believe my best choice is an Action P80S. My reasoning being that the motor has 12 armature segments (assume 12 pole ?) and I read that it operates at 50Mhz.
Can anyone suggest an alternative before I commit myself ?



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Bintur Ellenbach

inertia

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 05:01:23 pm »

PM sent.  :-))
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derekwarner

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2015, 12:09:56 am »

Well Mr LN.........you certainly have chosen a super motor.....high torque, low current consumption & virtually silent on 6Vdc  :-))...however these motors are designed to run in one direction only.......be careful and check the preferred direction of rotation for vessel ahead motion.......

That is choosing the polarity that forces the rotor shaft back into the endplate ...and usually into a single round thrust ball bearing ball which is supported in that small round dished protuberance on the centre of the endplate.....this will then determine the hand direction requirement of your propeller


Yes,  when you reverse the motor for astern motion, the motor gauss when excited draws the rotor shaft off that single thrust ball ...and you may experience rotor longitudinal jitter and slight noise >:-o ...but only when running on greatly reduced voltage 'signal' pulses...or dead slow RPM astern......

I am sure you will find a suitable near noiseless ECS to complement you motor and rejoice with the clarity of engine sounds via your P100.... O0

Please do not think I am attempting to offer technical comment of the BLACK art of electronics and electronic control...as I am only suggesting some basic lay fundamentals of automotive blower fan motors in action.........Derek
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Derek Warner

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Netleyned

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 07:42:52 am »

Well Mr LN.........you certainly have chosen a super motor.....high torque, low current consumption & virtually silent on 6Vdc  :-)) ...however these motors are designed to run in one direction only.......be careful and check the preferred direction of rotation for vessel ahead motion.......

That is choosing the polarity that forces the rotor shaft back into the endplate ...and usually into a single round thrust ball bearing ball which is supported in that small round dished protuberance on the centre of the endplate.....this will then determine the hand direction requirement of your propeller


Yes,  when you reverse the motor for astern motion, the motor gauss when excited draws the rotor shaft off that single thrust ball ...and you may experience rotor longitudinal jitter and slight noise >:-o ...but only when running on greatly reduced voltage 'signal' pulses...or dead slow RPM astern......

I am sure you will find a suitable near noiseless ECS to complement you motor and rejoice with the clarity of engine sounds via your P100.... O0

Please do not think I am attempting to offer technical comment of the BLACK art of electronics and electronic control...as I am only suggesting some basic lay fundamentals of automotive blower fan motors in action.........Derek


There's me thinking you have just graduated Summa Cum Laude from DM's
Course of 'I know nowt about electrics.'   O0


Ned
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 09:12:20 am »

Quote
I read that it operates at 50Mhz.
After re-reading it should be 50Hz, the frame rate of the transmitter.  It will "growl".  The only silent controls are the resistive types like the Bobs boards which waste power by creating heat, must be perfectly matched to the motor and control in steps, which is why ESCs that work by switching are so prevalent.  There might be some modern ones with output pulse rates above human hearing, but I haven't come across any yet.
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HMS Invisible

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 01:48:17 pm »

I'll admit it is possible to say in 10 or less words why brushed escs beyond human audible range are rare. Read the text in bold and ignore the rest.   
 One bogus explanation of the noise source being town to motor quality has to be properly slayed before it gets resurrected. It may also help to explain there are design and cost constraints that influence why noisy, 3 to 4 kHz escs are made at all. The noise comes from the motor windings vibration in tune with their own magnetic field, particularly noticeable when the brushed esc switches above 2kHz and the below the electrical resonance of the motor. If you were persuaded that the that noise follows around poorer quality motors then cover all the permutations by simple substitution. You would find annoying whine follows wherever the esc is around the 1-5 kHz mark. Young people may hear 100 to 20kHz but old, LoFi telephone amplifiers limit to the 1kHz to 5kHz band for a reason. That band is what you hear best unless you have cyber enhancement.
  Now to why the highest frequency (tens of kHz) brushed escs are rarely seen in boats. 1kHz is good enough for decent low throttle response and at 1kHz, they won't howl anything as bad as above the 3 kHz mark.
 I estimated the component cost for some 2kHz Chinese 20 amp brushed escs being discussed in the submarine section of an American RC forum and it is only a couple of quid all-in. To make a quiet, 10+ kHz  esc would call for a bulky, expensive, low ESR reservoir capacitor (cap) to drive up to a 380 motor. This cap (on the esc at the power supply) would multiply the size and weight of that little controller as well as bust the component budget.
  Plenty mayhem members understand cable inductance, impedance, stored energy & damaging transient voltages but, in short, a low ESR cap is needed to sink energy coming back out the motor on a 10kHz esc but not a 1 or 2kHz esc.
Mechanical resonance
  The compromise of 1kHz is sufficient for an esc to get above the mechanical resonance of the motor. That resonance point is why a 1kHz brushed esc allows better performance at the lowest end of throttle than the older, juddering  50Hz escs do.
   You loose the low-throttle stickiness of 50Hz controllers but still get substantial brush arcing on 1kHz as the motor's stall current is being switching or interrupted. That is possibly why some escs, noted for the motor howling they cause, have been pushed to design limits of 3to 4kHz, or as high before adding cost and complexity.
Electrical Resonance Point
Heavy iron-cored motors don't strictly need a frequency above human hearing for quiet operation. The huge inductance reduces the electrical resonant frequency (or forces the current to near d.c.)  when the voltage is switching below the 20kHzr audible limit of humans. The opposite is true for coreless motors where precious metal brushes won't tolerate arcing and the low inductance needs a frequency beyond 60kHz.
  So if you don't like motor whine then choose an esc that can pulse well below 3kHz. Stay above 500Hz to avoid low throttle juddering or go for one above 10kHz if you can get one.
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mrlownotes

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 04:12:41 pm »

Thankyou kindly for the lengthy explanation, MicroGyros
Also thankyou ALL for your input.
I hope to reduce the whine to a minimum as the installation is in a very large wooden hull (with excellent resonating characteristics).


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malcolmfrary

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2015, 06:13:28 pm »

If the hull is big enough, adding sound deadening material to the panels near the motor and some resilience in the motor mount will help stop the motor noise from travelling around, especially what can be heard at "normal" viewing, and therefore listening, distances.
Personally, I find that a bit of a whine from the motor is helpful in letting me know that things are actually working, but that's just me.
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Netleyned

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2015, 06:25:52 pm »

My grandsons have been taught to listen for the null in noise when
Taking a boat from the water as the propellor will be stationary.
No little fingers will be compromised.


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raflaunches

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2015, 07:08:50 pm »

On some of our boats using the car heater motors it's actually sounds more realistic than some sound systems, especially the big river gunboat Gnat as I read that the bearings used to regularily wear and make whining noises if not kept under check!
Plus as mentioned at least you know your motors are working!
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Nick B

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mrlownotes

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2015, 07:29:10 pm »

Hi Nick. The model is a large side-wheel paddler. Visitors to the Warwick show this year will have probably seen it on the Wicksteed stand. The sound system will be producing sampled actual original steam engine sounds so I hope to eliminate any whining.
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raflaunches

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Re: Motor whine
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2015, 07:37:18 pm »

Ah ha i know who are now!!! Sorry Alan didn't realise it was you! :embarrassed:
See you in a couple of weeks I think Action is the way forward as I think Paul uses them and his boats were silent
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