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Author Topic: Why bother with navigation lights?  (Read 5643 times)

Brian60

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Why bother with navigation lights?
« on: December 08, 2015, 09:15:26 AM »

When your'e lit up like this, if another ship doesn't see you coming because they can't see your nav lights, then they don't deserve to be at sea!

Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2015, 09:25:35 AM »

You would still want to be able to gauge direction and closing distances.


You know, because stuff happens.... %)

boneash

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 09:26:34 AM »

But another vessel can't tell whether you are coming, going, stationary, have attachments beside  or tows behind.

It is the detail that navigation lights impart that prevents collision at sea, not the fact that someone is there!!
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Arrow5

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 10:56:41 AM »

Of course if the helmsman is asleep at the wheel, or drunk, then even a Christmas Tree wont tell you much other than the season of the year. :((
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g6swj

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 11:41:22 AM »

If ships use Automatic Identification System (AIS) with all it's whistle and bells(alarms) interfaced directly into the engine control systems you know exactly what the other ship is doing...

The IMO SOLAS requires AIS to be fitted aboard all ships of gross tonnage >= 300 for international voyages

AIS transceiver sends the following data every 2 to 10 seconds depending on vessels speed while underway, and every 3 minutes while vessel is at anchor. This data includes :
•MMSI number of vessel – vessel’s unique identification
•Navigation status – “at anchor”, “under way using engine” or “not under command”
•Rate of turn – right or left, 0 to 720 degrees per minute
•Speed over ground – 0.1 knot resolution from 0 to 102 knots
•Position accuracy
•Longitude – to 1/10000 minute and Latitude – to 1/10000 minute
•Course over ground – relative to true north to 0.1 degree
•True Heading – 0 to 359 degrees from eg. gyro compass
•Time stamp – UTC time accurate to nearest second when this data was generated

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tigertiger

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 11:55:18 AM »

Yes, but then ... things still go bump in the night.



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g6swj

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 12:00:01 PM »

Yes they do - no system is perfect and indeed the weather/possible system failure malfunction, HUMANS also come into play.

My point was more that ships do automatically share navigation data so you know their course, speed & distance etc not that they don't hit each other!

My understanding is that AIS itself is not an Anti-collision device
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Brian60

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 12:43:58 PM »

But another vessel can't tell whether you are coming, going, stationary, have attachments beside  or tows behind.

It is the detail that navigation lights impart that prevents collision at sea, not the fact that someone is there!!

Uh Huh. So can you identify any navigation lights from the the other lights on that ship? You should be able to see at lease a green, can you? Nope of course not, there is far too much glare from the other lights. Now if you were a big ship then the distance you are viewing it from in the photo is too close for comfort anyway, I'm assuming the photo was taken with a telephoto lens on the camera.

radiojoe

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2015, 01:00:59 PM »

She is berthed why would the navigation lights be on, you can clearly see the nav light box which if on would be red. %%
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Arrow5

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2015, 01:44:15 PM »

Joe I think we are discussing the oil service type vessel, at sea , not the City of Rotterdam . Back a few posts to see the one.  Umi`s post is my possibility, blind drunk comes to mind %%
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Nemo

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2015, 02:10:47 PM »

Brian.
COLREGS are intended for ALL vessels at sea, not just those lit up like that one. There are a lot more of the others  - that is why we bother.

I was sailing round the Owers Light  off Selsey Bill one very black night when I was confronted with a very large gas carrier and it was lit up like the proverbial! I could not tell one light from another at a mile but I knew from watching angles that it was turning away - no problem for an experienced marinerrrrr.  ok2
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radiojoe

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 03:28:51 PM »

Joe I think we are discussing the oil service type vessel, at sea , not the City of Rotterdam . Back a few posts to see the one.  Umi`s post is my possibility, blind drunk comes to mind %%

Ah right I should have realised, I'll get me coat.  %% %%
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Brian60

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 07:42:56 PM »

Brian.
COLREGS are intended for ALL vessels at sea, not just those lit up like that one. There are a lot more of the others  - that is why we bother.

I was sailing round the Owers Light  off Selsey Bill one very black night when I was confronted with a very large gas carrier and it was lit up like the proverbial! I could not tell one light from another at a mile but I knew from watching angles that it was turning away - no problem for an experienced marinerrrrr.  ok2

Oooh I didn't know that %) But we are not discussing ALL vessels, we are talking about THIS ONE It's obviously underway albeit slowly you can see a wake at the stern. But you can't see the nav lights because of the glare of all the rest.

Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 08:13:30 PM »

It is very possible, the the vessel in your photo is under tow, and that the
required nav lights are on the towing vessel ahead.


 ok2

boneash

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 08:53:13 PM »

I hope not Umi.. the towed vessel must clearly exhibit port and starboard and stern lights as well.

Rod
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dpbarry

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2015, 11:05:38 PM »

Internation Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea (IRPCS)


Rule 5 - Lookout - A proper lookout must be maintained at all times using[size=78%] all available means throught a full 360 compass circle.[/size]

Cue up 'Mark one eyeball'  :-))

All electronics are 'Aids to Navigation'.
Unit 4.2 - Watchkeeping for RNLI crew.  %%  getting it drummed into me at moment.. >>:-( <*<


Stand to be corrected here but in that photograph, you wouldn't see the Port light as you are coming up behind him on his port side. All you 'would' see is his stern light. Port and starboard lights only show 22.5 degrees abaft the beam


Look at angle of port and starboard lights in following photograp

http://www.nauticalsoftware.com/assets/images/under-way-lights-plan-full.jpg
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Nemo

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2015, 11:20:37 PM »

Oooh I didn't know that %) But we are not discussing ALL vessels, we are talking about THIS ONE It's obviously underway albeit slowly you can see a wake at the stern. But you can't see the nav lights because of the glare of all the rest.

Not trying to tell you to suck eggs Brian, just trying to answer your title question   %)  We are looking at a photograph here and of course it is difficult to pick out nav lights from it. I wonder what the real view of the ship was to the naked eye, but I expect - despite the glare from other lights - you should be able to see the red and green which we assume are there. Can't really see what point you are trying to make from a not very clear photo!
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CGAux26

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2015, 11:24:11 PM »

Most of the navlights I have seen on Galveston Bay are the dimmest lights on any vessel.  This applies from 14' fishing boats up to the ocean going tankers that run through the night at near sea speed.  I once nearly ran right up on a barge being pushed ahead because it was loaded down and its navlights looked more like votive candles.


Second rant, in agreement with the man who started this thread:  On model boats navlights are pretty, but I have never seen their skippers show any knowledge of the rules of the road.
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Sub driver

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2015, 11:31:30 PM »

Hi.
From my perspective it looks like the ship / crane is going backwards ie astern as it looks like you are looking at a flat transom as you can see the aft prop guards on either side of the hull ..plus there is no bridge or bridge windows visible..just accomodation levels and cabin windows visible.
Regards

sub.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2015, 11:31:38 PM »

Joe I think we are discussing the oil service type vessel, at sea , not the City of Rotterdam . Back a few posts to see the one.  Umi`s post is my possibility, blind drunk comes to mind %%

And Concordia???
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MikeK

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2015, 07:18:39 AM »

Who's to know that at the moment the camera was clicked, on the bridge there was some poor mate surrounded by a world of electronics muttering to himself 'Now what the hell does that alarm bell mean ? ' As the rarely heard 'nav light out' bell rings out !

Unlikely I know, but funnier things have happened at sea, as they say !   %) ;)

Mike
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g6swj

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2015, 10:56:34 AM »

Is this ship the Norce Endeavour (DLB)

If so which is the bow and which is the stern?
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Liverbudgie

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2015, 11:03:35 AM »

This vessel is clearly running ahead i.e. you are looking at her starboard side. It is indeed true that many navigation lights are not bright and would/are lost when a vessel is lit up like this. Also, it is may understanding that a vessel underweigh should not be showing any light forward apart from navigation lights, when approaching a berth and as a last resort to alert the watchkeeper(s) of the oncoming vessel that you are there.

Furthermore, on a good many modern vessels the navigation lights are not were you expect them to be, in many instances I have seen the right up forward abaft of the stem almost.

On the photographic side. Virtually all cameras would be unable to discern a weak red or green light amongst all these white lights, unless you have a top end Nikon or Canon with the lighting correctly set on the camera; even then, you would have to do a lot of tweaking in Photoshop to get even a hint of colour.

LB

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Sub driver

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2015, 11:13:09 AM »

?
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Sub driver

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Re: Why bother with navigation lights?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2015, 11:37:06 AM »

Re the last pic above..the brdge is on the opposite side of the accomodation block when compared to the orig posted pic.?. ie towards the crane
Sub....but who knows.
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