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Author Topic: modelradioworkshop diesel sound  (Read 8067 times)

aln101boat

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modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« on: December 09, 2015, 11:51:51 PM »

Hello there,
              Bought the above unit and tried it on the radio which is not fitted yet.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like no diesel I've ever heard.
   Sounds more like a seagull outboard. The whine of the electric motor would be better.
Charged the Rx batts, but made no difference.
   From the effect, I'm guessing its just a series of voltage spikes making the speaker "pop", as opposed to a sound file.
Any thoughts before I contact the seller and complain bitterly.
rgds Alan
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malcolmfrary

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 09:00:18 AM »

From their site - "Note a power amplifier maybe required in some models."  which probably means that a power amplifier will be needed in most.  The speaker will need to be properly mounted in an enclosure, or at least with a baffle to separate the front and back sound, but a simulator will never be as good as a sampled system.  I don't know if there is a bunch of SMT on the underside of the board - there certainly isn't much stuff on the top.
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inertia

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2015, 09:52:37 AM »

If it's adjustable - which it clearly is - then it's a synthesised sound and not a proper digital sample. If you want 'the real thing' then it will cost a lot more than twenty one pounds. Alan Bond's (Technobots) diesel sound unit is the best of the synthesised type that I have heard but it's getting on for three times that price.
On the other hand, if you're prepared to wait for a little while then the significance of 'P110' might become clear...  %)
DM
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g6swj

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2015, 12:55:21 PM »

Inertia,

"If it's adjustable - which it clearly is - then it's a synthesised sound and not a proper digital sample" (sorry don't know how to do the blue box quote function)

By adjustable do you mean the effect that you are  increasing / decreasing revs of the engine sound - if so why does this mean it can't be a digital sample? (Although you may well be right for the product in question)

Jonathan
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inertia

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 02:00:06 PM »

By 'adjustable' I meant changing the character of the engine sound rather than varying its speed. For example the Technobots unit has twenty different "voices". It is basically a series of generated pulses whose waveform can be smoothed out, chopped up, made more spikey, looped etc etc ad nauseam to change the character of the sound. That way it is possible to change from a 4-cylinder diesel to an 8-cylinder sound by turning a few presets and varying the parameters which create the pulses. A digital unit has a real sound recording and without some complicated editing software you can only change the speed of it by changing the rate at which it is sampled.
If you want a musical comparison, a synthesizer can be made to sound pretty much like any musical instrument you can name whereas a violin will only ever sound like a violin - but it will do that job better than any synth can.
DM
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g6swj

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 02:05:04 PM »

Inertia,

Got it - thank you

Jonathan
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plastic

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 05:08:18 PM »

By 'adjustable' I meant changing the character of the engine sound rather than varying its speed. For example the Technobots unit has twenty different "voices". It is basically a series of generated pulses whose waveform can be smoothed out, chopped up, made more spikey, looped etc etc ad nauseam to change the character of the sound. That way it is possible to change from a 4-cylinder diesel to an 8-cylinder sound by turning a few presets and varying the parameters which create the pulses. A digital unit has a real sound recording and without some complicated editing software you can only change the speed of it by changing the rate at which it is sampled.
If you want a musical comparison, a synthesizer can be made to sound pretty much like any musical instrument you can name whereas a violin will only ever sound like a violin - but it will do that job better than any synth can.
DM

Not completely right - most sampled synths use multi-samples across the pitch range so different permutations of sampled sounds are chosen depending on the input so you don't the the 'munchkinisation' as the pitch increases. It all depends on the complexity of the chosen hardware and the amount of memory available.
An analogue representation will only have one changing parameter - pitch - as the throttle is applied - if it switches between waveforms, it will be like changing gear in a car.
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g6swj

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 05:39:02 PM »

Plastic very interesting. Love the word 'munchkinisation' - I read it several times before the penny dropped

There is at least one model sound card that does exactly that, it can select different, preconfigured digital sound samples to be used as the throttle is applied exactly like changing gear in a car - you can also configure the points that trigger the change.



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plastic

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 05:53:43 PM »

If the system is clever enough, the rate of change of throttle on/off could pick a different set of samples from the wavetable to give labouring and over-run sounds along with backfires and exhaust pops & bangs.

All this tech is available and very cheap these days.
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Netleyned

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 06:24:39 PM »

My Greeves 250 T and my brother's Talisman twin
sounded like that on the overrun. {-)

Ned
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inertia

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 06:29:04 PM »

Not completely right - most sampled synths use multi-samples across the pitch range so different permutations of sampled sounds are chosen depending on the input so you don't the the 'munchkinisation' as the pitch increases. It all depends on the complexity of the chosen hardware and the amount of memory available.
An analogue representation will only have one changing parameter - pitch - as the throttle is applied - if it switches between waveforms, it will be like changing gear in a car.
"Not completely right" is often right enough. It was a simple question and so I was trying to keep the answer simple for a non-technical member.
He got it.
I'm pleased that your verdict was not "completely wrong" - we could have been here all year.
'Nuff said.  :-))
DM

Remember P110 - you heard it here first  :-X
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g6swj

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 07:11:07 PM »

Inertia,

Not sure how you come to the conclusion "a non technical member"  - assuming you where referring to me m'duck,  I'd get any hats you have,  line them up in a long line and get ready to eat them.

Watch this space...

Nuff said
Jonathan
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inertia

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 08:59:16 PM »

Inertia,

Not sure how you come to the conclusion "a non technical member"  - assuming you where referring to me m'duck,  I'd get any hats you have,  line them up in a long line and get ready to eat them.

Watch this space...

Nuff said
Jonathan

I wasn't.
The OP was aln101boat.
DM
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aln101boat

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 10:43:16 PM »

Don't you sometimes wish you hadn't asked :o
  I'm not even sure if anyone actually answered the question.
   The adjustments for 2,3,4,5,6 cylinders just sound like a slightly different seagull outboard.
Has anyone else tried this bit of kit, and was it complete rubbish too?
Alan
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inertia

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 11:35:40 PM »

Don't you sometimes wish you hadn't asked :o
Alan
Yes.
I hope my reply made some sense to you i.e. if you want a real sound then you'll have to pay substantially more for it. Sound simulators are more for toy boats. Think P110...

g6swj
Bad day. Not going to argue with you. All hats duly eaten; socks for dessert.  Nighty-night.

Dave M
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 09:51:39 AM »

Don't you sometimes wish you hadn't asked :o
  I'm not even sure if anyone actually answered the question.
   The adjustments for 2,3,4,5,6 cylinders just sound like a slightly different seagull outboard.
Has anyone else tried this bit of kit, and was it complete rubbish too?
Alan


I had one fitted in my CHANT Tanker, the 55" version. Using a 4" speaker, baffle mounted vertically in the bows, using the hull as a soundbox to deepen the effect. It sounded like some of the old PAS boats that would chunter round the harbour in the seventies and eighties. Maybe it is down to your speaker placement, this can dramatically alter the output sound of these units. As mentioned previously, its not a posh sound unit, but did the job for me.
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aln101boat

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 10:03:27 PM »

Righto,
Guess I'll just add this to the "experience" box, and throw the item in the bin.
Nothing is going to make its effect even remotely acceptable.
Is the P63 likely to be any better?
Thanks, Alan
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inertia

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2015, 11:17:14 PM »

Is the P63 likely to be any better?
Thanks, Alan
No.
DM
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TomHugill

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 11:27:00 PM »

If you're looking at sound units forget everything else and get a benedini tbs mini. I've used a few sound systems in different models and the benedini is easiest to make sound files on, make adjustments too and has the smoothest transitions. There are many sound sets too. Also it can control of light and servo functions. It's not cheap at 90 euros but with the weak euro its not insane money.
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rob

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2015, 09:12:48 AM »

Sound systems of Canada make, in my humble opinion, the finest sound systems money can buy. I have had two in different 1/6 tank models. YouTube has many references to this system in boats and planes. Not cheap, but the best.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2015, 09:19:00 AM »

Righto,
Guess I'll just add this to the "experience" box, and throw the item in the bin.
Nothing is going to make its effect even remotely acceptable.
Is the P63 likely to be any better?
Thanks, Alan


That's the spirit, if at first you don't succeed, and all that jazz :-))
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C-3PO

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2015, 09:41:36 AM »

My favourite sound system is the USM-RC2 produced by a German company Beier ( http://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/home/home.php ) - again not cheap but look at what it can actually do for the money - also has 2x20w amps on the board and uses .wav files from SD card - it even has a Juke Box functionality. The configuration software is comprehensive - yes it does take some time to learn and may not be for "all" due to it's complexity but the time investment in my opinion is worth it.

Don't be fooled that this is just for Tanks, Trucks or Cars

Check out this uTube video all the switching/sound/stall flickering light/engine and reversing sound/ yellow flashing lights etc is all done by the card
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tpYHtsocFE
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBh6cfg4IvA good example of multi sounds
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Q-7JpZcRQ
 
The clever bit is the link between sound and events (movement etc) and the way you activate the sounds, it can even play random sounds, dim lights, create servo movement multi step sequences( go to a degrees for b seconds, move to y degrees for z seconds) and much more.

Just me pennies worth...

C-3PO
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malcolmfrary

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2015, 09:49:54 AM »

Whatever sound system is used, it can never be better than the loudspeaker and its mounting will allow.
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C-3PO

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2015, 10:04:52 AM »

How true the speaker mounting/size/air movement output to the outside world can be a real limiting factor.

The USM RC2 also has inbuilt support for Nautic switching (decoder on board) so you would only need the switch unit installed in your TX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-o-5NCEIh0

C-3PO
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aln101boat

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Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2015, 11:49:56 AM »

Ok, spend more money!!
All I wanted was a reasonable diesel sound that varied with speed.
Surely it can't be that difficult.
I really don't think I should need to start finding noises myself to program into things.
It was a notion to try out, but I'll just forget it now.
Thanks all.
Alan
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