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Author Topic: Port of Registration question.  (Read 4656 times)

boathound

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Port of Registration question.
« on: January 04, 2016, 06:34:06 pm »

If a merchant ship is owned for example by a Greek company, crewed by a mix of Greeks and people of other nations and is registered in Panama what flag does she fly at the stern? The nationality of the owner, crew or port of registration?
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Netleyned

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 07:00:17 pm »

Port of registration.

Ned
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derekwarner

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 10:17:19 pm »

Morning Ned......this appears to be a simple question, but think this needs clarification  :o.......I need to research the Red Ensign and the Blue Ensign

[but just need to eat my toast & vegemite for breakfast first :P....]

Will report back ASAP.......... Derek
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Derek Warner

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derekwarner

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2016, 10:39:07 pm »

That was nice toast... :P... & cup of English Breakfast Tea  {-)

Ned.......I suspected some sort of catch here.........as 30 years ago we had 100,000 tonners on the Kembla to Headland run viz, the Iron Sirius [Port of Registry = London] but flying the Australian Red Ensign whilst at sea

The following extract text confirms ..'Foreign owned ship on demise charter to an Australian based operator = Red Ensign''

The term of charter explains this....I know it as 'Bare Boat' Charter.....

A bareboat charter or demise charter is an arrangement for the hiring of a vessel whereby no administration or technical maintenance is included as part of the agreement. The charterer obtains possession and full control of the vessel along with the legal and financial responsibility for it.

Derek
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boathound

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 10:43:41 pm »

So it does not matter where the ship is registered?
Does that apply just to Australia or the rest of the world too?


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Colin Bishop

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 11:04:54 pm »

I think what Derek's example indicates is that a 'bareboat charter' means that the charterer of the ship will register it. It is the nationality of the port of registry that determines the laws and legal provisions that apply to the ship and who is responsible for an investigation should the ship be lost or in collision etc. That is why there are so few large ships on the UK register even if they are owned by UK companies. The crewing standards for UK and most European registered ships are more stringent than for 'Flags of Convenience' where safety and other standards can be much more lax and the ships therefore cheaper to operate.

As regards the Blue Ensign, this can be flown instead of the Red Ensign for certain non Naval ships as specified here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ensign

You often see it in the Solent flown by rather posh yachts belonging to posh sailing clubs!

Colin
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derekwarner

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 12:24:25 am »

To further clarify here.......in Australia, the Bare Boat Charter is a mercantile legal document between the owner of the vessel and the charterer. However prior to the vessel sailing from port and for this document to cover and become the Legal Entity, the document must includes proof of all insurances to be registered with the Government

So in the case of the Iron Sirius, her ownership remained that of Ropners and her port of registry was still London, however [the Australian] BHP taking the vessel in the terms of Charter were the party responsible for all matters relating to the use of the vessel

The vessel remained as a UK Registered vessel, however the Charter registered with the Australian Government transferred all responsibilities to the Australian Charterer and as such the Iron Sirius sailed under the same laws and legal provisions of an Australian registered vessel

So ....what prompted this questioning? .....

1. at every berthing of the Iron Sirius at the Port of Kembla, she would when tying alongside have her stern Australian Red Ensign lowered and removed to minimise the dust plume from the iron ore discharge
2. an assignment in Maritime Law during my mid life later years studies  ok2...........Derek
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Netleyned

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 04:30:13 pm »



You often see it in the Solent flown by rather posh yachts belonging to posh sailing clubs!

Colin
Not always posh Colin
RNSA members can fly the Blue Ensign undefaced and members range from Scabby ABs to Admirals.


Ned
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 05:00:39 pm »

I expect you are right Ned but when I was sailing around out there all the boats with Blue Ensigns were rather expensive ones... I just had a little Red one...

Colin
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Netleyned

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 05:10:52 pm »

Flag or boat or both  {-)


Ned
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2016, 05:29:42 pm »

It was a white boat Ned, all the little plastic ones are white ones. Back in the 80s they over engineered them with such thick layups of GRP that they never wore out, much to the annoyance of boatbuilders who wanted to sell you new one.

I did like it though....

Colin
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boneash

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2016, 07:27:32 pm »

For around 100 you could have joined the Cruising Association and been able to raise a blue ensign on any vessel you were in command of !!
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boathound

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 07:34:50 pm »

So....... the flag does not have to be the same as the port of registration?
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derekwarner

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 08:35:30 pm »

boathound......from what we see, clearly the answer from a technical point is no, however from a point of convention it would suggest yes it would be best to nominate the flag to be the same as the Port of Registration %) however this also requires the nomination of the City where the Register Office of the Owner is located

By my example, our BHP head office was in Collins Street Melbourne, so all BHP owned vessels with Australian registration bore the nomination of Melbourne under the Vessels name on the stern

A British registered vessel could display London, or Liverpool as being the distinct location of the Registered Office of the owner, not the city of the dockyard where the vessel was built....  >>:-(... Derek
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 08:56:39 pm »

On the English Channel, Brittany Ferries are considering reflagging their fastcraft to the British flag - there are commercial reasons apparently. It will still be owned by BF though. All their other ships are flagged in France, some in Morlaix which is several miles up a river where none of the ships could ever reach!

Colin
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Netleyned

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2016, 09:01:20 pm »

For around 100 you could have joined the Cruising Association and been able to raise a blue ensign on any vessel you were in command of !!
That is a defaced Blue Ensign, not a plain one.

Ned
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boathound

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2016, 06:03:11 pm »

Thanks for the replies everyone, I get it now!
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dodes

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2016, 09:28:43 pm »

When I was a young lad, shipping lines like the Royal Mail Line used to like employing masters who had a Royal Naval commission, because then the vessel could fly a blue ensign (those days a RN officer with 7years watch keeping experience were given a full foreign going masters ticket on application to the DTi after leaving Naval service ).
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Liverbudgie

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 01:00:48 am »

The Queen Mary11 currently wares the Blue ensign, or she did last May.

LB
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 12:09:59 pm »

That is interesting LB. QM2 was originally registered in Southampton and there are plenty of photos showing her flying the Red Ensign. In 2011 all Cunard ships were re registered in Hamilton Bermuda and photos show them flying the Bermuda Red Ensign. QM2 did indeed fly the Blue Ensign last May though so I guess it was because her Master is RNR and is still entitled to fly the Blue Ensign even though the ship is now registered in Bermuda. Flag etiquette can be very complex!

Colin
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Nemo

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Re: Port of Registration question.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 04:41:48 pm »

That is interesting LB. QM2 was originally registered in Southampton and there are plenty of photos showing her flying the Red Ensign. In 2011 all Cunard ships were re registered in Hamilton Bermuda and photos show them flying the Bermuda Red Ensign. QM2 did indeed fly the Blue Ensign last May though so I guess it was because her Master is RNR and is still entitled to fly the Blue Ensign even though the ship is now registered in Bermuda. Flag etiquette can be very complex!Colin

Quite correct Colin - on both statements.  :-))
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