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Author Topic: Has the art of model building died?  (Read 23767 times)

Colin Bishop

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2016, 11:53:12 AM »

As I have commented earlier, and Roy has subsequently confirmed, trying to define scratchbuilding is now an irrelevance given that there are very few competitions where the extent of the work put into the model matters for judging purposes.

This topic does however demonstrate that there seem to be a lot of people who are really hung up on the subject and keen to place themselves as high as possible in the (imaginary?) modelmaking 'pecking order'. It's just a hobby for heaven's sake. Simply do what you enjoy. You may indeed be able to turn up a brass stanchion for example but it isn't necessarily enjoyable to turn up a couple of hundred if you can buy something exactly the same for not too much money and use the time saved in making something more interesting.

At the risk of starting another argument, what I do like to see is people tackling unique projects so that they have produced something that no one else has built (HDML's excepted maybe!).

When attending shows you do very often see multiple examples of the same prototype being modelled, understandable if it is a kit of course, but often when not. The same old prototypes just seem to crop up again and again. Bismarck, Titanic, Flower Class Corvettes etc. etc. It's always a pleasure to chance upon something new and think, 'Well, I've never seen a model of THAT before.'

Going back to the HDML example, I can perhaps cap Roy's story. Back in the early 70s, Dave Sambrook, Steve Kirby and Tom Brown, all master modellers, got together, did the research and each made a lovely model of a Flower Class Corvette. A month or so after their completion Matchbox brought out their kit at the same scale - ouch!

Colin
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inertia

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2016, 12:48:12 PM »

"Probable" sounds sufficiently woolly as to be unreliable. I'd say go for the POF and leave the GRP to someone else - probably.  8)
DM
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Netleyned

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2016, 12:57:48 PM »

Just realised I must be a Scratch Builder because Glass Fibre makes me itch  :P :P :P


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Crossie

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2016, 01:14:15 PM »


         Could it be that the tale related by roycv about his friend wanting to smash up his 'unique' model and the one about Colin Bishop's friends being up 'upstaged' by a kit being produced gets to the nub of what it is that raises the ire in some folk, namely Ego. This definitely occurs in model aircraft circles and I have friends and aquaintances whose  interests are varied and very different from model boats or planes and they have told of instances of snobbery by some purists in their particular field of interest, animals, models, vehicles, furniture even, who often appear to be scornful of anything that they consider to be 'inferior' : in which case it would seem to be quite a widespread trait, and is it more common in this country I wonder? I read various USA forums(?) forii(??) and folk are really inclusive and helpful, welcoming all newcomers, newbies questions, and applauding new ideas and everything from the rivet counters best dream to the 'I've put this together over the weekend and perhaps it shows' sort of thing!
           
                Any thoughts of 'it's just an Airfix(other brands are available!) kit, then looking at the utterly magnificent efforts of kpnuts with his Citroen elsewhere in this Forum should soon dispel the idea that kits are easier , or the result lesser, than rolling your own.

                                                             Trevor
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TomHugill

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2016, 01:17:11 PM »

Now count how many people including yourself have posted to your topic and compare it to how many people have just read your topic, You will find a huge discrepancy. If only those who read actually offered comment or help on a post how much better would things be?


That's true of all forums, there are many people who like looking at all aspects of the hobby but don't always have  anything to add.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2016, 01:47:32 PM »

' Could it be that the tale related by roycv about his friend wanting to smash up his 'unique' model and the one about Colin Bishop's friends being up 'upstaged' by a kit being produced gets to the nub of what it is that raises the ire in some folk, namely Ego.'

I think that is inevitable if you are in a competitive environment, it goes with the territory as you need to strive to be the best. But if you are not in a competitive environment it is a rather different matter. If you are made to feel inferior then it is because you have allowed yourself to be. If somebody chooses to look down on you because you have got the number of rivets wrong then that is their problem not yours. They are obviously obsessive and, in a sense, to be pitied by normal folk - the phrase 'get a life' springs to mind. But an awful lot of people do allow themselves to be unsettled by such people who will inevitably have their own hangups and insecurities.

At the moment I am making some fittings for the current project. They are not quite as good quality as I would have liked because I rather rushed them and could be improved upon if I could be bothered to do them again. However, it will be possible to mount them in such a way that it will be very hard to pick up the fact that they are not all they could be (faults hidden beneath an overhang for example). Do I feel guilty? No, because nobody will notice on the completed model (If I do ever complete it!) and I can move on to making something else.

Colin
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roycv

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2016, 01:52:57 PM »

Hi I had a conversation with one well known judge now deceased who  liked to see what modellers had done with kits as a basis and then just made them better.
We had one boating member who branched out to build a kit live steam lorry.  It ran pefectly under RC hardly a whisp of steam and looked really good.
The judges were so impressed they asked me to transfer it to the scratch build competition as it was the best they had seen and desrved the top award.

It really does depend on what you have done and how far you have come from the get go and do not ignore reliability.

Like Colin has said it is the work content which is always apparent to a competition judge, (and usually to fellow modellers).

In our society at our annual exhibitions we have 2 major awards/trophies one is for best in show but primarily not from a kit and the otheri is  the best model (anything) from a kit.

This will pit an Airfix kit against a Winstons 5 inch gauge live steam loco.  The plastic aeroplanes have won as well!
Sometimes it is the sheer novelty of an item, there was one which had started out as a kite but now kit turned into a 1900's flyer.

 An intrigueing one was a retired dragline crane driver who built a model of his crane, but all the controls were built into a chair so you could sit and drive the crane the full size way.  He has passed on and since then I expect it has rotted in a garage and it will soon be thrown out.

That bit makes you think, as to what will happen to your pride and joy when you are gone.  Almost nobody will know how they work so perhaps if your model is worth building it is worth wriiting a little about it and how it works and keep it with the model to be found when you are gone.

regards Roy
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warspite

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2016, 02:14:22 PM »

As has been mentioned before, I don't have the experience to wind my own motors, design the electronics to operate or transmit/receive a signal, facilities to create my own batteries, cast or even machine a propeller and shaft or the joints, so I have no choice to buy these in.
Where am I going with this - in my eyes - scratch built means that for all intents and purposes, the hull superstructure, fittings etc. are made from stock materials - just like a fabricator would obtain from a supplier, so evergreen stock and preformed timber (i.e. for planks) are all acceptable, as is glues solder and brass section, its what they are turned into that makes it a wonder.
I'm not even a kit builder - I'm a kit converter, I may have made some bits that qualify as being scratch built - the masts on soveriegn, the box on the LCMIII (and as yet I do not know anyone who has converted the airfix 1/72 into a rc boat other than me - though may soon find that this is not the case, but I believe I am the first), little changes to other boats I have, and made them RC. when the cardboard boat is ever finished, it will still have an Airfix sea king on the stern - so won't be fully scratch built, will still have propriety rc equipment and drive train.
But in my eyes - I did that preceeds any idea that 'it's not correct' by rivet counters/purists etc, it may be laughed at, but who cares other than I like it, and that I appreiciate those that have the skills and equipment to produce their own hulls and fittings, however they turn out.
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Buccaneer

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2016, 07:48:58 PM »

Roy sums it all up in the post two above with the wording near the end "your pride and joy". Everything, no matter how you built it, is your pride and joy and you have every right to be proud of it regardless of what others may think. They do not know how skilled, or unskilled, you are or the fact that you are a concert pianist whereas they cannot play the piano.

If you want to get into serious arguments about detail take up model trains. Wrong truck behind that loco, and wrong paint for that era, wrong uniform for stationmaster, wrong food for the cat in Scotland - the list is endless and some people can actually get quite nasty about it all. I'll stick to boat kits and coping with my inabilities to get it right first time around!
John
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roycv

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2016, 09:29:51 PM »

Oh, Buccaneer, I have just come in from playing with my trains!
Roy
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2016, 10:18:50 PM »

 :o :o :o :o :o :o

My goodness someone just used that "word" and the mods missed it.

You know "normal" on Mayhem {-) {-) {-) {-)

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derekwarner

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2016, 01:03:49 AM »

Rivet Counters......a far maligned term >>:-(....there are a number members in the model fraternity with in-depth knowledge and experience in certain specific areas

I think they deserve a pay rise :-)) in offering answers to our curious questions .....we can all learn & benefit by reading & understanding such responses..........so our thanks to these few.......Derek
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irishcarguy

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2016, 01:54:45 AM »

I don't disagree with you Derek, BUT & it is a big BUT when "they" treat us like imbecile's & Lord their supposed knowledge over us kit builders as if we are a sub species that is the place I draw the line. "YOU" don't know me, have never met me in most cases & worse have not a single clue as to my skill level either. I think Brian asked the question in good conscience & it did not offend me in any way. It sure stirred up a hornets nest though. I can think of at least ten companies in the U/K that still make model boat kits full time & the quality electronics for us also & I am sure happy they do. It tells me that there are lots of kit builders still enjoying the hobby. On that note let us all relax & get on with enjoying our hobby what ever it may be that satisfies us, most of us know when we have done a job to our satisfaction & feel chuffed about it. Mick B.   
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2016, 06:25:50 PM »

Rivet Counters......a far maligned term >>:-( ....there are a number members in the model fraternity with in-depth knowledge and experience in certain specific areas

I think they deserve a pay rise :-)) in offering answers to our curious questions .....we can all learn & benefit by reading & understanding such responses..........so our thanks to these few.......Derek


I kind of agree, It's good that people have taken the time to thoroughly research whatever it is, but some of these "experts" are just downright rude.
It is possible to make constructive criticism without being offensive, a concept which sadly some of these self appointed experts do not seem to understand.


I'm a self confessed kit basher. I enjoy what I do and to me that's the important part. I build models to relax & take my mind off the trials of life in general.
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Norseman

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2016, 07:01:56 PM »

Sometimes it's hard to say exactly what you mean in text and it just comes across a bit abrupt. Often the same thought expessed orally just come across more politely because we pick up on tone, volume, pauses and facial expressions. We have probably all pressed send and then had to edit.
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irishcarguy

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2016, 07:30:41 PM »

True enough Essex, I am sure many of the forum members that have helped me along the way were scratch builders. However what upsets us is the superior airs some adapt often in a rude way. It is not very nice & is no help to the hobby in any shape or form & costs us converts to our hobby. You will find it though right across the spectrum so it is not unique to model boat building. Mick B.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2016, 09:10:02 PM »

 
:o :o :o :o :o :o

Just an aside, the question was maybe intended to refer to model boats and scratch building in general but that is not what was asked. "........Model building died".

Our hobby is but one facet of model building and no way is model building dead. New kits are released each day. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))

A example for the other thread on here, correct use of English language%% %% %% {-) {-) {-)
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carlmt

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2016, 06:32:33 PM »

Does spending over 4 years designing, making the parts and fittings and then building them to produce a model ship count as 'scratch-building'? Then, yes, I have scratch built a boat!  I HAD to....no-one else produced a kit of it and I wanted a model of it for myself.  The fact that it has now turned INTO a kit for others to enjoy should not be derided.
 
By the definition some have given on here to 'scratch-building', the owners of Deans Marine, Model Slipway and all the other small kit manufacturers must all be scratch builders - because, in my view, a decent kit cannot be produced without first, effectively, scratch-building it!!!
 
Carl

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2016, 07:46:04 PM »

Hi Carl
You have of course done all that a scratch builder would do and have then gone on to pre solve many problems that your kit builders would have otherwise encountered. No mean task indeed  :-)) It was an education to see just what a struggle kit manufacturing actually is.

Dave
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2016, 08:27:15 PM »

Surely building what is effectively a master for a kit goes beyond what night be termed 'scratchbuilding' as all the components have to be designed for production line replication. You are not just building a one off where errors might be corrected on an ad hoc basis so that they will go unnoticed.

Colin
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roycv

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2016, 11:37:36 PM »

Hi Carl, definitely beyond the call of duty! All kits must start with a scratch build first.
May we know which model boat that might be?
regards Roy
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tobyker

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2016, 12:05:00 AM »

De gustibus non est disputandum.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2016, 12:08:58 AM »

 
   Ohi........................... O0 O0 O0
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Unsinkable 2

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #123 on: March 30, 2016, 07:00:22 AM »

I think scratchbuilding is an 'old' word that originated from times when preformed parts were not available and when the motor came out of some other machine and was modified to fit.


Nowadays I see a  scratchbuilder as someone who builds something that is not a kit and uses bought parts as well as self made parts.


Has model building died? NO WAY!.... Look at the number of online model parts available, look at the number of modelling magazines you can subscribe to, and look at the number of clubs available to join. When these things start to become hard to find THATS when you can say model building has died, but until then whether you are a scratchbuilder, kit basher or modifier, a rivet counter or a beginner I say hats off to all of you as we are all part of what keeps modelling ALIVE!         U2
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Has the art of model building died?
« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2016, 08:37:48 AM »

U2,

Agreed.   O0 O0

All one has to do is look at our Armour modelling cousins, some who are also members on here building boats as well. :-)) :-))

Also on here we also have Aircraft, Trucks and so it goes on.
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