Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Literature about the Battle of Jutland  (Read 6855 times)

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,757
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« on: March 22, 2016, 11:50:38 PM »

Whilst I wile away the hours sitting in the Guard Room as Orderly Cpl I've been reading quite a few books- got through 6 in four days (some of them were Sci-fi books such 2001 A Space Odessey Series) but my recent one is called 'The Rules of the Game' by Andrew Gordon. Its an indepth book about Jutland and the British Naval Command, at the moment I'm about 1/4 through it but so much more information is given compared to the other book I've read about the battle (Capt D McIntyre, VE Tarrant, etc). I'm very impressed at the detail and the arguements for each of the important decisions made by Beatty and Jellicoe. From what I've gathered so far which breaks some of the myths of the battle is that some of the bad decisions made by the Battlecruiser force was due to Beatty's Flag Lieut (or signals officer) who didn't have the correct training (or qualifications) to be that role. However because he was friends with Beatty he retained his position and it wasn't until after the war that Beatty actually agreed with all the other Admirals that his Flag Lieut probably 'lost' three battles that the Royal Navy should have won due to bad signalling.
I'm currently at the important '16 point turn' of the 5th BS (QE Battleships) following the destruction of Indefatigable and Queen Mary.
There are a lot of good books coming soon about the battle, ones I'm looking forward to are:
 
Jutland: The Unfinished Battle by Nicholas Jellicoe (Admiral Jellicoe's Grandson)
 
Jutland 1916: The Archaeologly of a Naval Battlefield by Innes McCartney (the diver who found them)
 
Just thought I'd share whilst reading it.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

suffolk1928

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 44
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 01:34:46 PM »

Hi Nick


I spotted that one in the bookshop the other day - sounds like a good one!


A few years ago I read 'Castles of Steel' which is an account of the war at sea 1914-1918, some great details about the personalities involved. Also gave me an idea for a new build which would be HMS Glasgow, if I can find some time!


On the subject of good books for the Guard Room - I recently finished Admiral Sandy Woodward's book on the Falklands '100 days' which was brilliant.


James



Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 01:56:23 PM »

The archaeology book sounds good. There is quite a bit of stuff and lots of photos on the internet about the wrecks as they are today. Just Google Jutland Wrecks.

HMS Defence is interesting, contemporary accounts stated that the ship disappeared in a huge explosion that blew her to pieces but in fact she is still surprisingly intact although the bow, and I think the stern have been blown off.

The stern turret of Invincible is still trained over the beam with the guns in place but the roof is missing which would appear to confirm the explosion shown in the after part of the ship in the photo of her sinking.

Colin
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,757
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 08:08:54 PM »

Hi Nick


I spotted that one in the bookshop the other day - sounds like a good one!


A few years ago I read 'Castles of Steel' which is an account of the war at sea 1914-1918, some great details about the personalities involved. Also gave me an idea for a new build which would be HMS Glasgow, if I can find some time!


On the subject of good books for the Guard Room - I recently finished Admiral Sandy Woodward's book on the Falklands '100 days' which was brilliant.


James


Glad to of been some help. I read Castles of Steel many years ago- ironically whilst on guard again!- and thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the Cuxhaven Raid.
 
Hi Colin
I'm kind of hoping that the new book has some new pictures in them of the wrecks and the ships, I've watched his DVDs of Jutland Wrecks available from navybooks.com and I was amazed by the Defence wreck too considering the account from the time too. Just hoping that they are not all fuzzy, grainy photos from ten or twenty years ago.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Tiny69

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
    • Tiny's Modelling Site
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2016, 06:42:27 AM »

My Mother received a copy of Jutland the Unfinished Battle book this week from Nick Jellicoe with a personnal dedication to my late father Ron Horabin for his help and kind donation of his model of the Iron Duke to the Jellicoe family.  The model is currently on display at the Sea War Museum in Denmark.

ballastanksian

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,594
  • Model Boat Mayhem inspires me!
  • Location: Crewkerne
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2016, 05:18:51 PM »

If the Lieutenant was a family member then Beatty's loyalty I can understand, but surely as a vastly seniour officer, Beatty could have sacked the daft biffer and held his reputation intact?

Maybe fate made it so, so that we could not lose the war in an afternoon?

Logged
Pond weed is your enemy

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,757
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2016, 09:24:01 PM »

My Mother received a copy of Jutland the Unfinished Battle book this week from Nick Jellicoe with a personnal dedication to my late father Ron Horabin for his help and kind donation of his model of the Iron Duke to the Jellicoe family.  The model is currently on display at the Sea War Museum in Denmark.


I remember reading about your father and his model of Iron Duke but I can't remember where. I seem to remember a chap (presumably your Father) showing his model to Nick Jellicoe possibly in a magazine a few years ago? Not sure but rings a bell.
Stunning model and Nick Jellicoe looked very impressed with her.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,757
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2016, 09:30:31 PM »

If the Lieutenant was a family member then Beatty's loyalty I can understand, but surely as a vastly seniour officer, Beatty could have sacked the daft biffer and held his reputation intact?

Maybe fate made it so, so that we could not lose the war in an afternoon?




As far as I'm aware Lt Seymour was no relation to Beatty. The books suggests that the Battlecruiser Fleet were considered to be 'the cool kids' of the fleet and the grand fleet despised them for their behaviour. Many admirals including Hood, said that the 5BS shouldn't have lent to Beatty in lieu for the 3BCS because they all believed that with all that power would have gone to his head and he would fight the entire German fleet by himself, which was later proved he did.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2016, 11:33:27 PM »

I believe Seymour was courting Beatty's niece. Lady Beatty took exception to this and Seymour became persona non grata with the Beatty family to the extent that he suffered a nervous breakdown and committed suicide as a result of falling out of favour. Very tragic really. Beatty's behaviour after the war in attempting to change the official Jutland records to show him in a better light was reprehensible yet he apparently did a good job in representing Britain's interests in the post war negotiations which culminated in the Washington Treaty. When Jellicoe died Beatty insisted on being a pallbearer at his funeral despite being in poor health. He himself died only shortly afterwards.

The characters of the Jutland admirals make for an interesting study and comparisons. The apparently dashing Beatty had a wretched domestic life with his half mad wife taking a succession of lovers to which he had to turn a blind eye. It is interesting to surmise to what extent his personal tribulations had upon his professional career.

Just as in WW2 Admiral Sir Dudley Pound was subject to a terminal brain tumour during a critical period. And of course, at the battle of Waterloo, Napoleon was suffering from an acute attack of piles... On such personal weaknesses does history depend.

Colin

Logged

Tiny69

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
    • Tiny's Modelling Site
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2016, 10:01:46 AM »

Here is a picture of my Dad and Nick in the London offices of Cayzer Marine with the Iron Duke in the background.  The second is the Iron Duke in its natural environment.

david48

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 827
  • Location: Strathdon,Aberdeenshire
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2016, 10:52:34 AM »

Found this in the April edition of Sea Breezes ,The Jutland Scandal  by Vice Admiral John Harper and Reginald Bacon ,price £30.00 .
I am not into thing navy so I do not know if it's a good read or not . It might be of interest to some .
David
Logged
Two heads are better than one sheep head  as my old plant manager used to say

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 696
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2016, 12:21:41 AM »

I also find this period of history fascinating, particularly Jutland albeit i think there are too many "scandal" books about Jutland. Fundamentally the scandal was really that in they eyes of the public another smashing victory like Trafalgar was not achieved but the reality is that such victories were very rare and given the technology of the day probably impossible to achieve unless the weaker fleet decides to stay put and be smashed. when you have two fleets of equal speed how do you stop one just running for home?


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,757
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2016, 07:30:10 PM »

Here is a picture of my Dad and Nick in the London offices of Cayzer Marine with the Iron Duke in the background.  The second is the Iron Duke in its natural environment.


That's the picture I remember, I think it was in Britain at War magazine.


I've heard many sides of the Jutland story and I've come to this conclusion:


The German High Seas Fleet lost the battle as they retreated from the battlefield (a victor must retain or gain control of the battle site- the Germans certainly didn't). The damage to the surviving warships was so extreme that it perhaps would have been better if they had been sunk. The repair work took months if not years in some cases, the German Navy even erected a massive wall around the dockyards to prevent the German public seeing the battered ships.


The British Royal Navy won the battle but should have a better win, the public expected it as did the Navy, it was a complete mess with communications and lessons that should have been learnt from previous battles had not been incorporated in to reality.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2016, 08:26:00 PM »

I bought Nicholas Jellicoe's book on Friday and am half way through it. It is a good general book about the battle and the events leading up to it so far but I have not yet found anything new and most of the personal quotes from participants in the battle are those which have appeared many times previously. There are a few statements n it that I think may not be accurate but I have not got around to checking them against other sources.

It is probably a good read for people who are not familiar with the detail of the battle and are prepared to get stuck into it for a better understanding than is given in the usual brief articles on the subject.

Colin
Logged

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 696
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 02:20:31 PM »

Campbell -Analysis of the fighting at Jutland is also a pretty good read but rather more specific as it notes every known hit on every ship of both sides with some diagrams of the damage.


There is another book "The fighting at Jutland" if I recall correctly which was written in about 1921 and is personal descriptions of both sailors and officers of the events. Its a whole collection of personal narratives with background detail and it makes for quite interesting reading as all the participants are now long gone.


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2016, 07:20:10 PM »

Not sure if it hs already been mentioned but here is the animation which complements Nick Jellicoe's book.

http://www.jutland1916.com/understanding-the-battle/

Well worth a look.

Colin
Logged

Tiny69

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
    • Tiny's Modelling Site
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 08:38:12 PM »

I am currently reading Nick Jellicoe's book too, a gift from the first print run sent to my mother by Nick with a hand written personal dedication to my Father Ron Horabin for his kind donation to the Jellicoe family of his model of the Iron Duke. Not knowning much about the battle details I have found the book and interesting and informative read.  The animation on the website was also and intresting watch showing how the two sides fought each other.  I have also been invited, by Nick, along with my mother to the Centenary Wreath laying Ceremony in the Crypt of St. Pauls Cathedral were John Jellicoe and David Beatty lay in rest next Monday 23rd May.

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19,436
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 08:47:48 PM »

Jutland: WWI's Greatest Sea Battle

Channel 4 (UK)  Sat May 21, 8:00pm

Thousands of British sailors died in the Battle of Jutland. It has been plagued by controversy ever since. Secret History joins a landmark expedition to uncover the truth about the battle.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/jutland-wwis-greatest-sea-battle
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2016, 10:56:56 AM »

 I found the programme rather disappointing. It was always going to be ambitious to try and describe the complexities of Jutland and its aftermath in 50 minutes of TV time but I guess they wouldn’t have been given a longer slot or two instalments. The result was to dumb down the story, missing out many important bits and telescoping the chronology which resulted in a rather inaccurate summary for viewers not familiar with the battle. They were also keen to produce ‘new evidence’ with a bearing on the battle which they didn’t do. It was interesting that the stern of Indefatigable was found some 500 meters from the rest of the wreck showing that the after part of the ship had been blown off but this is not inconsistent with accounts at the time which described an explosion near X turret followed by the ship rapidly sinking by the stern before further explosions forward; and indeed the famous photo of the sinking shows the bows rearing up with a smoke cloud some distance astern which presumably resulted from X turret magazine blowing up and which marks the spot where the stern section sank.
The description of the Indefatigable wreck looking like a wrecked village and demonstrating the force of the explosions by the craters all round it rather ignores the fact that the ship was actually blown to pieces after the war by marine salvors looking for precious metals and that this largely accounts for the present condition of the wreck.
 
The sonar scan of HMS Defence was fascinating, showing the bow and stern blown off by magazine explosions but the middle part of the ship generally intact with the 7.5 inch gun turrets still trained on the beam. (many of the turret roofs were blown off apparently) At the time, the ship was thought to have disintegrated as it went down so fast but that was not the case. It seems likely that when the amidships magazines went up the sides and/or bottom of the ship were blown out resulting in the rapid sinking. Reports of the Queen Mary sinking indicate that the side plating was blown away from the frames when the X turret magazine exploded. A similar thing happened with the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbour where the sides of the ship were blown out and B turret and the forward superstructure collapsed into the hole. It appears that if there is an explosion below decks then the armoured deck will contain the explosion to some degree and the pressure wave then passes through the ship blowing away plating, demolishing light internal structures and setting off other magazines. It is believed that this is what happened in the case of HMS Hood.
 
I have now read Nicholas Jellicoe’s book on Jutland and it is very good. He claims to be neither a historian or an author but has produced a very even handed and well written account drawing on all the major known sources on the battle (see bibliography). There are a few minor inconsistencies that I noticed but not many and none of significance. Some people might find it a bit heavy going but Jutland was a very complex event with a long drawn out aftermath and Nick’s book does an excellent job of making it accessible. I don’t think there is anything really new in it, after all this time it is unlikely that any major new facts will come to light but of course the arguments surrounding who did what and why and all the ‘what ifs’ will probably continue forever!
 
Colin
 
Logged

NFMike

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,061
  • Location: Hythe, Hants, UK
    • Plague Marine Services
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2016, 01:23:43 PM »

I too found the programme a bit uneven. I don't have much knowledge of the battle but having apparently scanned 4 or 5 ships and come to conclusions about Jellicoe and Beatty it was mentioned in passing at the end that 20 odd shops had been sunk. Well that suggests a lot more action than was mentioned, even briefly, so I'm inclined to take the programme's findings with a pinch of salt for now.

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 696
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2016, 04:55:15 PM »

Actually I seem to recall I did see this and the main revelation appeared to be some new charts dated from 1916 which showed the course of the battle very accurately (for the time) and that Beatty did indeed loose sight of the Germans which is something Beatty always denied and indeed the official records had clearly been amended! Still no real major surprises.

Personally I think a review of the battle needs to be split into two categories, the strategic issues and how the fleets were actually handled and managed and then the losses. What is glossed over is that Scheer blundered back into the British battle line a second time in his attempts to escape home. If a British admiral had done this there would have been a public outcry of incompetence but somehow this is all rather ignored.

In terms of gunnery Hipper defeated Beatty but Beatty strategically defeated Hipper by forcing his ships back onto the High Seas Fleet such that Scheer never knew Jellico was in the field (water!) until the whole horizon erupted in gunfire.

Jutland was never intended by the Germans. they sought to trap a small portion of the Grand Fleet and destroy it with overwhelming numbers to even things up. When they "caught" Beatty and the fifth battle squadron they thought they had done it until the appalling shock of Jellico and the entire Grand Fleet appeared!!
Logged

NFMike

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,061
  • Location: Hythe, Hants, UK
    • Plague Marine Services
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2016, 07:32:54 PM »

I was reading (parts) of the Wikipedia article earlier today. It made me realize (again) how wonderful hindsight is. The difficulties of knowing what was happening, who was where, and then signalling commands and actioning them were huge. No radar, limited and dodgy radio,  ...

It seems quite hard to actually blame anyone for what happened, good or bad, except the idiots that start these wars in the first place of course.

Tiny69

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 101
    • Tiny's Modelling Site
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 07:41:57 PM »

On Monday 23rd May 2016 I, along with my partner Mo and my Mum attended the Centenary of the Battle of Jutland organised by the Nick Jellicoe, Grandson of John Jellicoe. The day started with decendants of Jellicoe, Beatty, Scheer and Hipper meeting in the crypt of St. Paul's Catherdral, London by the tombs of Admiral Jellicoe and Admiral Beatty. A short service was performed by The Reverand Canon Phillippa Boardman with a reading from Nick Jellicoe, after which wreaths were laid on each of the tombs by the elder members of each family.


All the members of the gathering where then taken to the Army and Navy Club a short walk from Trafalgar Square for buffet lunch where Nick gave a short talk about the past few years organising the event and all the various family members he had met. He also mentioned the model of the Iron Duke and how pleased he was to have received the model from my Dad, Ron, but saddened that he was no longer with us to attend this event.


To finish the afternoon off everyone walked to Trafalgar Square to attend a second wreath-laying ceremony below the two bronze busts of Admiral Jellicoe and Admiral Beatty. A number of readings were given by the younger descendants of the two before they laid the wreaths below each bust. It was a very enjoyable day and we were all proud to be part of it.

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2016, 07:16:18 PM »

 I visited the Jutland Exhibition at Portsmouth today and enjoyed it very much. It is situated in the old Mary Rose Museum building and is a collaboration between the National Museum of the Royal Navy and the Imperial War Museum.

There are several types of exhibits. The events up to and during the battle are displayed on large illustrated storyboards as you pass around the exhibition. There are also a number of vivid original paintings depicting various stages of the battle. Several immersive video spaces recreate what it might have been like, the night action with the doomed armoured cruiser Black Prince aflame from end to end being particularly effective. A good number of models are featured, many from the IWM collection and these include a huge restored builder’s model of HMS Canada and a smaller superbly detailed model of the German battlecruiser Lutzow which was sunk during the battle.

However the most interesting items are relics from the ships engaged including smoke blackened battle ensigns, a section of plating from HMS Barham with a shell hole in it, ships bells from HMS Tiger and HMS Inflexible together with many smaller items such as fragments of exploded German shells found aboard British ships and personal possessions such as a telescope which has been dented by a shell fragment.

Perhaps most evocative however, and holding pride of place near the exit, is a relic which was not at Jutland – the recovered bell from HMS Hood which bears a memorial inscription from Lady Hood, wife of Admiral Horace Hood who went down with HMS Invincible at Jutland, and who launched HMS Hood in 1918. The bell was unveiled by Princess Anne two days ago and presented to the Naval Museum. That really was something to see.

So, an exhibition well worth visiting. I bought the commemorative mug but passed on the T shirt before having a look around the rest of the dockyard where I found HMS Bulwark in port – an unusual visitor as the ship is usually based at Plymouth.

There is another Jutland TV programme on BBC2 this coming Sunday.

Colin


 
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,458
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2016, 08:11:57 PM »

Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up