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Author Topic: Literature about the Battle of Jutland  (Read 10238 times)

Martin (Admin)

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2016, 09:43:18 pm »

 
Another program about Jutland on BBC 2: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07dps1x
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Tiny69

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2016, 07:29:31 am »

I have received some photo's of the Iron Duke on display at the Deutsches Marinemuseum in Wilhelmshaven from Nick Jellicoe. She will be part of the Skagerrak. Battle without winners - Jutland exhibition which opened at 14:30 yesterday afternoon (29th May.)

Colin Bishop

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2016, 09:58:47 am »

Last night's programme on Jutland was better than the earlier one although the 'experiment' with flooding the model of a hull of HMS Queen Mary was rather pointless and a waste of time, also misleading as to what constituted 'subdivision' in a warship hull - it isn't just transverse bulkheads. Otherwise what was presented was fairly accurate although a lot was left out.

Again nothing new about the battle emerged but the simulation of a hit in the gunhouse igniting ready use cordite which then spread to the main magazine was pretty impressive. It did demonstrate very graphically how the armour protection could  be very dangerous in confining an internal fire or explosion so that the pressure built up and ruptured the structure. That is why they build fireworks and explosives factories with thick walls and thin roofs to vent accidental explosions. It was probably because a large part of Q turret roof was already missing that HMS Lion didn't break apart when the cordite in the turret trunk caught fire a while after the hit that disabled the turret.

What all these programmes demonstrate is that you simply cannot do justice to a complex event like the Battle of Jutland in a one hour TV slot.

Colin
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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2016, 10:51:50 am »

^ For sure.


TV's strength is (duh!) portraying visual feeling - the cramped labyrinth of USS Texas, the sonar images of the Jutland wrecks, the demonstration of enclosed cordite fires: all came across well.


Its failure, as always, is the pitch to the target audience. I suppose if you knew nothing about the battle, you'd come away somewhat educated. If, however, you'd bothered to read a book or even the Wiki article on Jutland you'd be left vaguely unsatisfied.


It's always the way.


I think to most people The Great War will always be defined by the Western Front: no doubt TV's 'big push' (i.e. where the money will have been spent) will be more focussed on the Somme this July.


Andy
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2016, 11:00:18 am »

Slightly off topic but I have just re read Martin Middlebrook's book 'The First Day on the Somme'. Originally published in 1971 it is absolutely gripping, especially if you have visited the area.

Colin
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Geoff

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2016, 09:34:03 am »

Magazines were designed to vent because the relatively slow pressure build up of a cordite fire should have given time for the pressure to be released and avoid a catastrophic explosion. The flame was intended to vent along the outside of the internal turret trunking. The trouble is that vent pieces create weak points in the magazine protection. A lot of work was done with vent testing before WW1 and after WW1 and it was determined that venting created unacceptable paths for flash to get into a magazine so it was abandoned. Only heavy armour can protect a magazine.

The unanswered question re the Jutland explosions was why did the cordite explode when it was only designed to burn. There were impurities in the cordite which made it more unstable as it aged so it "flashed over" and exploded when in quantity rather than just burn. This was another reason for the loss of the Battlecruisers though the prime reason was negligent handling of the cordite charges and stowage in exposed positions effectively laying a fuse to the magazines together with removing flash precautions to speed up the rate of fire.

As commented above Jutland was a very complex battle in bad visibility which does not come across well when showing diagrams etc.

 
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raflaunches

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2016, 09:16:35 am »

Well I've just finished watching all the Jutland documentaries over the different channels and I still believe that the best one was the Clash of Dreadnoughts which aired in 2003. However I thought the little advertised documentary about HMS Caroline presented by Dick Strawbridge and son was an example of programmes I'd want to see more of.
For those who didn't see it originally like me it's available on the BBC iplayer and is titled:
Belfast's forgotten hero- HMS Caroline

Whilst it didn't concentrate on the naval engagement it did give a stunning insight of the restoration of the ship and the things they find on board from 100 years ago.
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Nick B

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Bob K

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2016, 10:31:12 am »

I visit N Ireland quite a lot as we have family there.  First time I saw HMS Caroline I was surprised to know it was there, tucked behind what is now the Titanic quarter, afloat and with a block of offices on its deck as it was still a commissioned warship then.  I was glad to know they are setting about restoring her, the last ship existing from the battle of Jutland.  Small guns and no armour.  Crazy? 
Lots of video clips of her, and the start of restoration, on YouTube.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2016, 08:08:04 pm »

I have just bought the recently published book on the Jutland wrecks by Innes McCartney https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jutland-1916-Innes-McCartney/dp/1844864162 It isn't cheap at £27 but it does go very thoroughly into the current condition of the wrecks and attempts to reconcile what is now on the seabed with contemporary eyewitness accounts. If you like that sort of thing is is absolutely fascinating and has sobering descriptions of the physical effects caused by a magazine explosion in a large warship. Structures are not so much blown up as blown apart with incredible violence. It seems unlikely that most of the crews would have known much about it.

This book does add something new and worthwhile to the Jutland story.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2016, 07:51:28 pm »

I read this book on holiday a few weeks ago and I thoroughly agree with Colin that the book is worth a read, if not just for under water imagery of the wrecks. Its amazing how they manage to identify even the smallest of destroyers using the new under water sonar imagery.
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2022, 08:03:53 pm »

Just had an interesting chat on Facebook with someone who provided some excellent literature on the subject of Jutland, just a shame that his arrogant nature spoilt it at times as he was being very pedantic when I said that cordite was being stored in the passageways/handling rooms/turrets to which I was told no they only put extra cordite in these areas when in action… in my opinion it equates the same thing- cordite was being kept in a place that it shouldn’t have been! Needless to say the rest of the conversation was interesting when he wasn’t being a bit arrogant.
http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/grant.htm?fbclid=IwAR140pvi9gcEyhyBLjNjQW1jwWwvNIJ9-2EFopMuA_AwAyCTIIsYkb5mK58
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2022, 08:45:31 pm »

That is fascinating Nick. I have a dozen books at least about Jutland and Grant is credited with saving Lion from blowing up like the other Battlecruisers.

I have downloaded the article and will print it out for reading and putting with my other Jutland material.

As you know, there was a huge amount of politics surrounding the reasons for the loss of Indefagitable, Princess Royal and Invincible. This gives a real insight into the realities.

Thanks for the reference.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2022, 08:52:22 pm »

Colin
Glad to share it- it was the fantastic article he shared but the way he discussed the subject with me was on the verge of arrogance that if I didn’t agree with him I was wrong! Just managed to to find out that he objected to my reference to storage as he thought I was referring to the myth that the ships were overloaded with extra cordite when I was talking about the passageways, etc having cordite being stockpiled in these areas to reduce the time loading the guns. Now I know what he was finding offence at we are getting along!
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2022, 09:31:49 pm »

 It wasn't just the battlecruisers where cordite and other ammunition was stored in vulnerable positions. The practice seems to have been quite widespread in the Grand Fleet to facilitate maintaining rate of fire.

The descriptions of the loss of HMS Defence and subsequent scrutiny of the wreck support the view that detonation of the fore and aft magazines of the 9.2 inch guns spread rapidly through the ammunition passages serving the beam 7.5 inch turrets setting off ready use charges and  blowing many of their roofs off in the process.

The position of the wreck in an upright state seems to suggest that the bottom was blown out of the ship which would account for her observed sudden disappearance. It was assumed she had been blown to pieces but in fact the bow and stern had been effectively blown off with the detonation of the 9.2 inch magazines and the mid body of the ship had sunk vertically to the seabed. One hardly likes to imagine the fate of the crew inside her.

Colin
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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2022, 11:31:55 am »

Apologies for a diversion from Jutland but may I recommend this!  :-))
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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2022, 11:40:56 am »

My Gran's Brother was a Gunlayer on HMS Defence. RIP Uncle Joe.


Ned.
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dodes

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2022, 02:40:46 pm »

I read some years ago, that just prior to the WW1, that Jellico was employed in assessing the naval guns and ammunition range and effectiveness. Perhaps knowing the limitations of the guns including accuracy may have had an impact on his decisions in using the fleet, plus as some else has mentioned, radio use for reporting enemy positions was not fully utilised  and the CinC was at times not fully informed as to where they were during the battle. But as Churchill stated he was the only man who could have lost the war in half an hour. But it is mentioned that Beatty started a whispering campaign soon afterwards to remove Jellico and take over as CinC. But like all battles since time immemorial, there will always be discussions and arguments about it, just it was the first of a modern Naval battle fought for the first time, with no previous experience commanded by men taught on old ironclads and Victorian warships.
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raflaunches

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2022, 03:30:09 pm »

A writer on a Facebook group has being doing his studies on accuracy and armour capabilities of both sides in WW1 and this is his findings: very interesting reading:



The Armour protection of British Battle Cruisers.


There are several factor that one needs to bear in mind when looking at the Armour of British and German Battlecruisers, and the issue and subject is not as easy, or as simple as Thick Armour Good, Thin Armour Bad. And British Battlecruisers were most certainly not the weakly armoured warships just waiting to explode.


First up is the design philosophy of British battlecruisers. They were designed around the notion of the Big Gun and Salvo firing under Director Control. The idea being that the British ships would carry a bigger gun that fired a heavier shell and carried further than any potential opponent. This was initially true when Invincible was launched, her 12" guns totally outclassed the 8", 9" and 10" guns of other nations Armoured Cruisers.


And even when the Germans replied with Von der Tann, the range advantage and weight of shell was still in favour of the British ship.


And its here that Ballistics play their part. The British tended to favour a gun that fired a heavy shell at a "low" velocity, using the weight of the shell to smash through armour.


The Germans preferred a gun that fired a light shell at a "high" velocity, using the speed of the shell to punch through anything it hit.


The trade off was that for the Germans the effective range of their guns (the range at which they would penetrate British Armour) was lesser than that of the British Guns. The lighter German shell looses velocity quicker and so also looses its ability to penetrate Armour quicker than the heavier British Shell.


Added to this that British Armour Plate, inch for inch was of better quality than that fitted to any other nations warship.


The British guns had a longer reach and with Director Control could hit further out that any other nations warship, added to that that British Battlecruisers tended to have a speed advantage over their adversaries in practical conditions a British battlecruiser could choose to fight at a range at which their guns carried and the guns of their Opponent didn't.


The Empirical evidence from the actions of the Great War show this quite starkly. Over the course of Jutland and Dogger Bank for example (and taking into account estimations for the various Battlecruisers sunk in action) the Germans were able to penetrate British 13" Armour once at a range of 10'500 yards (a hit on Warspite); British 9" Armour five times (Lion once, Princess Royal once, Queen Mary three times); British 7" plate three times; 6" plate seven or eight times.


In addition to this information it should be borne in mind that the maximum range at which British 9" plate was penetrated was 14'600 yards (the hit on Lion at 4pm), meanwhile British 12" shells were penetrating German 11" armour at 17'500 yards; British 13.5" shells were penetrating German 10" armour at nearly 19'000 yards, and German 9" Armour at nearly 20'000 yards.


Dogger Bank is another perfect example. The British battlecruisers had free reign to open fire at will on the German Battlecruisers and the Germans were unable to reply for 15 minutes because the British ships were out of range, even for Derfflinger with her 12" guns!


Also worth bearing in mind that the Dogger Bank action settled into an action fought at around 18'000 yards. Lion was able to penetrate Seydlitz's 1" upper armoured deck and penetrate the 9" Barbette of C turret at around 18'000 yards, where as a 12" hit on Lions main belt failed to penetrate her 9" armour, but did displace the Plate slightly. An issue that was rectified with extra support built in behind the Armoured Belt.


The Legend that British Battlecruisers had indifferent armour started with Jellicoe and Beatty and sadly does not hold form once its put under the microscope.
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Nick B

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2022, 08:57:23 pm »

Bad craftsmen blame their tools!
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dodes

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2022, 08:59:05 pm »

Hi Nick, yes the British battle cruisers were well built and the DNC at the time was upset as he said they should have survived the hits they sustained, but as I mentioned some time ago these ships along with the armoured cruisers had their ammo stores increased by 50%, which posed no problem with shell storage but gave immense problems with the cordite storage(which is what would usually blow a ship apart if ignited due to very rapid expanse of gas), they had cordite bags stored in several places out side of the mag and their anti flash doors to the mags were clipped open. On the armoured cruisers there is stories of corrdite stowed on deck which would explain the witness reports of massive flash and smoke then clear water. As to accuracy the average hit rate for British ships was 4.7% and the Germans 5.4%. Also the the first dreadnoughts were not fitted with central gun control, they were fitted when Churchill was first sea lord and then he had to fight the DNC as he thought they spoilt the looks of his designs. The vessels fitted after build with the gunnery control had them fitted to the main mast, which meant after a day or more on exercises the gunnery officer could not descend down the ladders inside the mast tube because of the extreme heat from funnel exhaust, so it was not uncommon for food and drink being sent up by rope halliards. The latter ships had them fitted into the foremast, wonder why. But upto and including time of Dreadnought build, Admirals when they did Ship inspections were only interested in paintwork, polished brass and seamanship drills, gunnery drills and accuracy never entered their brains, even one captain had canvass tubes fitted to the end of his gun barrels to reduce soot getting on his ship.
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dodes

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2022, 09:24:32 pm »

Hi Nick, been thinking about what you have said. One major reason why the Germans were so hard to sink, is that they were designed to fight in the North Sea, consequently their crews lived ashore in barracks only going to sea for very short periods, so their hulls were very much more compartmented. Where else our vessels were designed to go world wide and the crews lived aboard, so to make them habitable the ships had less and larger compartments.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2022, 10:06:07 pm »

Quite right Dodes plus the German ships were wider and the anti torpedo protection had greater depth. They were tough ships. Quite a few of the High Seas Fleet were lucky to make it back to port after Jutland and spent months  under repair unlike their British opponents. However after WW1 the design of Bismarck was strongly infuenced by the WW1 Bayern design and it was outdated by WW2. In particular a lot of the vital communication and control links were above the armoured deck and were quickly destroyed in her final action. The separate Primary, Seondary and Tertiarry armament compared badly with the RN and US ships which had dual purpose secondary armament.

Bismarck was a very flawed design despite her impressive appearance and only her size helped her resistance in her final battle.

Colin
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Re: Literature about the Battle of Jutland
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2022, 02:11:12 pm »

The question of fire control in ww1 is actually very complex. In general there was a battle between independent fire and director fire. In the well publicised contest with two ships one with director and the other without the director won hands down. However in the real world it was not so easy. Which was best, independent fire or director fire, the answer is yes but it depends on the specific application.


Director has the advantage at longer ranges (which were only just coming in) and in poor weather but and its a big but, the rate of fire was less as they had to wait until the ship rolled onto the target to fire.


Independent fire was faster at shorter ranges and did not have to wait until the ship rolled onto the target or for a slower turret to compete loading because individual turrets could practice continuous aim and fire when ready.


So both methods had their advantages. The real question as to why it took a while to go for directors was the complexities of construction was significant as was the development of associated instruments, for example tilt correctors. With the technology of the day it was very hard to make sure all turrets were exactly in the same plane and this would vary if pointing forwards or aft of the beam so until additional equipment was perfected and tested and proved it was not clear directors were the answer. In general it was felt they were (and subsequently proved) but not in isolation.


Cheers


Geoff
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