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Author Topic: Sheet winches and tangles  (Read 5961 times)

Coomkeen

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Sheet winches and tangles
« on: April 03, 2016, 03:46:33 PM »

Hi All,

What do people do in these circumstances?
Very light, or hardly any wind.
Just a faint puff every so often.
There's one... let the sheet out.... no, sail didn't move 'cos not enough wind.
Now the sheet (piece of string) is all loose on the winch drum, some of it fallen off even, and trying to wind it in makes a complete cat's cradle of it all.
Total tangle in fact.

Is there any way of stopping this happening?
Have I just got a cheap sail winch?

On a full size boat of course, you'd just go and lean on the boom.
Maybe fitting an outhaul on the boom would do it.
(Thinking as I type)
No that's no use as it would stop it tacking.

Both main and jib sheets are on the same winch drum, and I can see mammoth foulups ahead 😱

Any ideas please?

Ron
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rickles23

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2016, 04:18:50 PM »

Hi,


At a guess, you don't have any tension on your winch line.


The set up depends on the winch and layout.


Chance of a photo?


Regards
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mrlownotes

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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2016, 06:12:58 PM »

Yes that's right.
No wind, so no tension.
The line goes from the winch to the sail or boom, nothing in between. so if there's no wind to provide the tension, it's all slack.
No photo's yet as it's all a bit black in there...

There is a sort of 'cap' with two slots in it, that goes over the winch drum, the lines coming out through the slots.
The cap is a tight fit on the drum, and I guess it's supposed to stop the line getting tangled.
But not only is it too tight, so the servo often stays under power and 'dithering' when not winding, it doesn't seem to do much good on the tangle front.

As you say, it needs tension on the lines. But you only get that with a bit of wind.
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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2016, 06:21:52 PM »

Thanks for the link.
But it's for a Google search, and I can't see any info on tensioners.
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JayDee

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2016, 08:19:13 PM »

Hello,

This device has been in use on my schooner for decades !!.
Build it exactly as shown and it will never let you down.
Never jams up - - ALWAYS works perfectly !!.

John.  :-)) :-)) :-))
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Unsinkable 2

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2016, 08:45:34 PM »

Hi  coomkeen we.come to Mayhem. Does it look anything like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sail-Winch-Servo-55g-metal-gears-10-63kg-torque-4-Turns-travel-/231050544470?hash=item35cbaf8556:g:MJYAAOxyNwNSLSK5

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick but the 'cap' is more of a 'bowl' and should be fixed to the servo with four screws that are provided. Then the string passes through the slot in the bowl and goes through a small hole in the drum that rotates. Tie a knot and then push the drum onto the servo splines. When the servo rotates you should see the knot rotating in the inner drum and the 'bowl' stays still.

Now providing that is correct and you wish to wind two strings on one drum you
remove the centre drum
Wind the servo to full slack position
Pass a string through each slot in the outer bowl (one each side)
Attach one string to the upper part of the inner drum and one to the lower (again one each side)
Place the inner drum back in and fit the centre fixing screw.
Pull a little tension on the strings and then
Wind the servo to its full tight position
As you do this one string winds around the top of the drum and one around the bottom.
Once it's fully tight you attach it to the boom

Things to watch for are strings that are too fat and fill up the space before the winch has finished tightening.
The boom at the full tight position before the servo has stopped turning. You may be able to adjust the end positions of your servo with your radio but that's a different subject.

Now providing all that is good you just let the sail out when the wind blows it. No wind, keep it tight

If all else fails then run the lines through brass tubes from the servo under the deck and up through the deck at the required position (if you are able to fit them) this means you will only ever have slack line above deck.

Let us know how you get on.   U2





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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2016, 08:48:01 PM »

I just saw Jaydees post......... There's a good option :-))
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roycv

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2016, 10:11:07 PM »

Hi all, my yachts have a simple endless loop which the servo turns (a pulley at the other end) and the sheets are attached to one side or the other of the string of the loop depending on which way you pull in the sails.  The sheets can get as loose as you like this way.

Even arm winches can get into a tangle if the sheets do not have a light tension, I sometimes use a small length of solder wire coiled over the line so that it drops under gravity and this stays tangle free.
hope this helps,
regards Roy
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mrlownotes

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2016, 11:23:05 PM »

Pages 58,59,60 show winch drum setups including tensioners.


Sorry,  don't know what happened there.

Download the first pdf in the list

www.theamya.org boats pdf

It's the One Metre Construction Guide pdf.
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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2016, 06:36:21 PM »

Thanks for all the help and advice chaps.
Lots of new(to me) info.

My servo/winch has a bowl over it, but it doesn't fit properly. It makes the servo struggle at times and lets the line get caught up.
Well, it IS Hobbyking 😱.
So...
New, decent servo?
Maybe.
I like the idea of continuous loops. On deck?
The working part on deck anyway.
And small brass tubes appeals too.
As a start I'm tempted to just throw it in the water as it is and see what happens  {-)
I can always blow the inflatable dinghy up and row out after it.
Might be an interesting test.

Thanks again.

Ron
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JayDee

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2016, 04:29:41 PM »

Hello Ron,

You dont HAVE to  use a winch on a yacht !!!.
You DO have to use a winch if you are racing.

Except, at the Fleetwood club, where they race Schooners, during the races Winches are forbidden !.
The sails are set on the banks before the races with Bowsies to set the sails angles.
Get the settings wrong and you loose the race !.

I have a Mickey Finn yacht that has not got a winch fitted, yet, it belts around the lake no matter what the wind does - - lots of fun.
Try setting your boat up without the winch - - your learning curve will be VERY steep !!.
You will also have a whole lot of FUN  !!!.

John.  :-)) :-)) :-))
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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2016, 05:47:42 PM »

Hi John,

Wow.
Cleating your mainsheet and just 'getting on with it' is NOT something anyone would accept on a full size yacht, as you know.
So it hadn't even crossed my mind.
Interesting idea though, especially for a set racing course.

Have to think about that one  O0

Ron
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JayDee

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2016, 06:33:29 PM »

Hello Ron,

Sailing a course without a winch will have to be slightly different than with one.
 You will have to "Tack" down wind as well as up !, but it is all learning!.

Amazes me just how well a boat can sail without a winch.

I take your point about it would never be done full size, but, it could happen !!.
You have to try it!.

John  ;)
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Nemo

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2016, 07:25:38 PM »


Sail arm! :-)) Four sails under control - and never had a tangle - yet! %)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMjnEq6wsIw
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Nemo

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2016, 08:16:54 PM »

Hello Ron,

Sailing a course without a winch will have to be slightly different than with one.
You will have to "Tack" down wind as well as up !, but it is all learning!.

Amazes me just how well a boat can sail without a winch.

I take your point about it would never be done full size, but, it could happen !!.
You have to try it!.John  ;)

Hi John -i think you mean 'Jibing'?

Bob.
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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2016, 08:34:03 PM »

Well.. I know what John means.
Steering a zigzag course downwind, first on one jibe then the other.
Often called tacking downwind I believe, even though it isn't  O0
Under the right conditions, and given full sail control, it can actually be faster than a dead run.
And not so much rolling.
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Nemo

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2016, 08:40:08 PM »

Hi Coomkeen, that is correct - you do not 'tack' downwind - you jibe - ie 'Stand by to jibe!'.
Bob.
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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2016, 08:45:06 PM »

Hi Bob,
Yep, but often in full size sailing, they refer to 'tacking down wind' meaning the whole zigzag course, rather than just the action of changing course once.  {:-{
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roycv

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2016, 10:07:22 PM »

Hi I was 'tacking' down wind only last week in my sons Northshore 34 (12 inches to the foot) and he insists I call it jibeing and as he is the one with the Offshore Yachtmaster qualifications I bow to his expertise.  Lovely day for it, he said it was a rare day when the wind came from the SSE and we sailed all the way to our sailing area in Brisbane Water,
regards,
Roy
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Nemo

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2016, 10:41:45 PM »

John.
Some of us cannot have time to read all posts every day!  O0

I did not think you had made a mistake at all, and I was not being 'picky', only assuming you did not know the correct terminology, and your use of a capital 'T' was not at all clear to me, a sailor of some 40 years experience, hence my reply which was made with the best of intentions.  :-)) 
As Roy describes - 'tacking downwind' (with a small 't'!) and his sons definition, perhaps I am not alone in giving such advice? ok2
Bob.

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JayDee

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2016, 10:50:12 PM »

 

Point taken
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Coomkeen

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2016, 07:56:43 AM »

Think it all depends on where you are, and who you are talking to.
If taking a real newcommer to sailing on a trip I tend to say things like "pull that piece of string over there, and mind your fingers", rather than all the nautical stuff. {-)
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Nemo

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2016, 11:09:49 AM »

'Right hand down a bit Number One please'  %%
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rickles23

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Re: Sheet winches and tangles
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2016, 11:51:19 AM »

Hi,


It's called a Boom because that is the sound it makes if you don't duck... {-)


Regards
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