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Author Topic: A word of warning  (Read 3875 times)

Klunk

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A word of warning
« on: August 13, 2016, 09:48:19 pm »

Just doing some work refurbish a boat for someone.
So I never built this boat, so hence the warning!

I needed to get some excessive epoxy out of the way while taking a propshaft out. No problem......dremel it. Glasses on .....dust mask on and away we go. .........
There's smoke coming up from the epoxy.........I now get a short sniffer and over I go. .......it wasn't epoxy but super glue. .....a lot of it! And we all know what super glue does when heated up don't we.

40 minutes out in the fresh air and I'm fully recovered.
Don't assume anything on glues.  If unsure do it outside in a well ventilated area. If I starts smoving get out of the romm ASAP
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Capt Podge

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2016, 10:29:15 pm »

Well worth putting up the reminder / warning Klunk - good on yer. :-))

Just in case there's anyone out there who does not realise it - superglue is Cyanacrolite

Just picked up the following on Wikipedia whilst searching for chemical content of Cyanacrolite.


Applying cyanoacrylate to some natural materials such as cotton, leather or wool (cotton swabs, cotton balls, and certain yarns or fabrics) results in a powerful, rapid exothermic reaction. The heat released may cause serious burns,[24] ignite the cotton product, or release irritating white smoke. Material Safety Data Sheets for cyanoacrylate instruct users not to wear cotton or wool clothing, especially cotton gloves, when applying or handling cyanoacrylates.


Regards,

Ray.
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Stavros

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2016, 10:43:42 pm »

Must admit initially I don't wear a mask especially if I don't know what the substance is that I am using a dremmel.....WHY.......simply one whiff of cyno and it is a pungent smell and it is straight outside to do the job...and mask straight on

Dave
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ChrisF

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2016, 10:49:05 pm »

Here's  me thinking it was safer getting into model boats rather than carrying on riding my motorcycles!
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nivapilot

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2016, 07:06:52 am »

"And we all know what super glue does when heated up don't we."

Well actually, no I don't...tried google but no results....unless I am looking in the wrong places..... {:-{
Are the fumes given off dangerous in any way?
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Netleyned

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2016, 07:58:38 am »

"And we all know what super glue does when heated up don't we."

 
Are the fumes given off dangerous in any way?


If you class cyanide as dangerous, then, in a word, Yes


Ned
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Brian60

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2016, 08:48:45 am »

As Ned says, the glue is a by product of cyanide.

Heating it in any way makes the glue outgas cyanide smoke/fumes, definitely not good for your lungs or you health. I'm asthmatic and only ever use superglues as a very last resort for this reason.

The glue is used by crime scene officers for detecting fingerprints! They put the item with a latent print into a fume cabinet then introduce superglue on a heating element to the cabinet, the smoke it gives off adheres to the natural skin oils on the latent print and makes them visible.

Thank you, public service announcement 101

Klunk

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2016, 08:52:07 am »

As Ned says, the glue is a by product of cyanide.

Heating it in any way makes the glue outgas cyanide smoke/fumes, definitely not good for your lungs or you health. I'm asthmatic and only ever use superglues as a very last resort for this reason.

The glue is used by crime scene officers for detecting fingerprints! They put the item with a latent print into a fume cabinet then introduce superglue on a heating element to the cabinet, the smoke it gives off adheres to the natural skin oils on the latent print and makes them visible.

Thank you, public service announcement 101 

I never knew that
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nivapilot

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2016, 08:58:57 am »

Ah right then, I'll be more careful in future then....didn't know that. :-))
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steamboat66

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2016, 10:05:08 am »

the fume cabinet for finger prints is often shown on the CSI telly series.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2016, 10:32:39 am »

the fume cabinet for finger prints is often shown on the CSI telly series.
......and is one of the few snippets on there that is actually really true to life that would fit into the timescale of the story.
 See anything with "cyano" in the name, there is a good clue there.
Most plastics, whether used as construction material or as a coating or joining agent, contain substances that are really harmful if released by heating or burning, but the size of the dose is what matters.
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ballastanksian

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2016, 10:58:29 am »

Occasionally at work kind customers and friends give us quantites of pewter sprues and old bits of white metal model kit to melt down and reuse for new kits and figures.

Well it often has CA glue on it still and so gives off the fumes in a bad way so we try not to do this these days despite having extraction but the occasional bit still gets in and so we shut the doors, let the extraction do its work and have a brew. It is horrible in all its forms wether still wet or as old crud that can gas you.

On an associated note, burning styrene gives of Phosgene! We are all doomed  %%
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StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2016, 11:16:42 am »

Be just as cautious with all adhesives , plastics, resins  paints and woods etc....always work in good ventilation and dont breathe the dust, most things are bad for you breathed in.

There is no cyanide in or around the manufacture of cyanoacrylate glues, the similarity is they also contain Carbon and Nitrogen....as do many things... thats about it....the nitrile group


The confusion is mainly caused by people who have been involved with spraying cars using `2 pack` paints using isocyanates as catylists  thse are in polyurthanes and can easily release cyanide especiallay if burnt chemicals such as methyl isocyanate , highly toxic isocyanates ( 2 pack catylist and foaming wood glues ) are nothing to do with cyanoacrylate glues

You will not release cyanide from heating cyano glue in any normal way, it does not happen it needs to be actually burnt under the exact conditions in a flame for even any slight chance of tiny amounts of cyanide production it basically can not happen unless you decided to make it happen!

What you can smell is purely cyanoacrylate....its not good to breathe it in....its not nice....it causes sinus irritation so the irritation can cause  sinusitis and headaches sore eyes etc

Acrylic polymers such as perspex , cyanoacrylate etc will on heating vapourise to create th liquid monomr thy wre formd from , example PMMA ( poly-methyl methacrylate / perspex ) can depolymerise to methyl methacrylate vapour and poly ethyl-2- cyanoacrylate ( solid superglue ) will depolymerise to create cyanoacrylate gas that you could....( but you can not...) collect  condense with a cool surface and put back in a bottle to reuse.... ( if you could keep it from setting first.... )
 
Three is no more chance of cyanide gas release in sanding / machining cyanoacrylate than there is in getting hydrogen and oxygen sanding a bath of water.

Chips....they contain cyanide.... cooking oils after heating up contain acrylonitrile  ( CH₂CHCN )

The nitrile group is the group contain cyanide, -CN

Cyanoacrylate ( ethyl ) the normal one to have is C6H7NO2

Odourlss cyano is a heavier molecule such as Octyl Cyanoacrylate C12H19NO2
If cyanide was produced by cyanoacrylate in any way it would not and could not be licenced for production and sale to the public

Not that you should breath them in.... as with ALL adhesives and paints....even waterbased ones ( and even non adhesive items such as salt flour  wood, and sugar! ) you should keep them off your skin and not breath them in as a liquid gas or dust

Fuming of fingerprints with cyano is done by heating liquid gel CA glue,

When we manufacture the monomer if you open the collection receiver tank too soon the vapour pours out...thick white clouds of steam and if you place your hand in it it condenses liquid CA on your hand that just drips off , just like water vapour would this is what they are doing with the fingerprints it evaporates and condenses on the prints and soaks into them.

This is a patent that is very similar to manufacture today, not how its done exactly but the basic chemicals are just about the same ,just purer , more stable and better production levels and many additives

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3728375.html
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ballastanksian

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2016, 12:39:51 pm »

Also it would not be used for medical emergencies! makes sense. Thanks for elaborating and clearing this up. But as said above, watch them fumes:O)
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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2016, 03:14:08 pm »

Thanks for the information,Five Star,
That put an old wives tale to bed :-))
It's one of those things that sounds right.
so therefore is believed.


Keep wearing the protection whatever you are sanding


Ned

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timgarrod

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2016, 04:09:29 pm »

I learnt the hard way.

was having an issue placing a bit on with epoxy, so had the brainwave of tacking the bit on with superglue while the epoxy dried 3 sec later lots of smoke. will not do that again.
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dpbarry

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2016, 12:07:57 am »

the fume cabinet for finger prints is often shown on the CSI telly series.


Seen Abbey doing that in NCIS. Quare stuff!!


Declan
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2016, 01:01:17 am »

Be just as cautious with all adhesives , plastics, resins  paints and woods etc....always work in good ventilation and dont breathe the dust, most things are bad for you breathed in.

There is no cyanide in or around the manufacture of cyanoacrylate glues, the similarity is they also contain Carbon and Nitrogen....as do many things... thats about it....the nitrile group



Thank you for nipping the "cyanide rumor" in the bud.

It's like saying there is dog meat in hot dogs.

 :-))

derekwarner

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2016, 03:41:56 am »

 %)...and Umi says ......'It's like saying there is dog meat in hot dogs'

Umi...best don't go to certain street food cooking wagons in parts of Asia .......... :o........ Derek
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2016, 04:04:24 am »

%) ...and Umi says ......'It's like saying there is dog meat in hot dogs'

Umi...best don't go to certain street food cooking wagons in parts of Asia .......... :o ........ Derek

What ever could you mean...?  %)

derekwarner

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2016, 04:28:26 am »

If the saying ...'ain't no bones in tripe' wasn't bad enough >>:-(.......well it appears there are no bones in the product of these packages either  {-).................

Not sure I will get any more bags of crumbed frozen calamari rings from Coles any more
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JimG

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2016, 09:06:40 am »


On an associated note, burning styrene gives of Phosgene! We are all doomed  %%

Another myth, the phosgene molecule contains chlorine. Styrene (or properly polystyrene as styrene , the momomer, is a liquid) only contains carbon and hydrogen so cannot produge phosgene. What you do get with styrene is a lot of smoke and soot when it burns.
I havn't been able to find any plastic that burns to give phosgene, the biggest risk seems to be heating chlorine containing solvents with a flame (including the coolants used in air conditioning and some fridges). So keep Plastic Weld away from any flames (contains dichloromethane.)

Jim
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StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar

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Re: A word of warning
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2016, 11:47:09 am »

A long time ago...back in about 1992 we were packing our Poly-Weld ,
it does contain about 80% Dichloromethane plus other monomers and solvents such as Methyl methacrylate amongst others,
Heath and safety wasn't very strict back then , fumes didnt get that strong as it was being packed on automatic bottle filler/capper we also had the door open to keep the fumes down
It was a very cold day....so someone....closed the door and lit a workshop propane fan type gas burner as there was no risk of a fire, after a few minutes the fums built up as we were filing about 1 ton per hour for the whole day, flames from it turned green....took so time for my chest to recover from the fumes

Its something that would not happen in a normal use enviroment even with lots of plastic weld as the volume required to crate enough fumes is massive even in a small room
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