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Author Topic: Needing help with identity and some advise  (Read 8056 times)

flyte

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Needing help with identity and some advise
« on: December 10, 2016, 11:13:18 am »

Hi everyone, I'm a complete noobie to pond yacht's and would like a little help. I recently bought a pond yacht as a restoration project, I've restored lots of antiques of every description but this is my first boat. This brings up a whole new set of questions, like do I restore her to be sailed ? or is she like me....."past it"  :o   and only fit for display ? will the old glue hold up if she gets wet again ?  what age is she ? where was she made ? do I go for a full restoration or a sympathetic makeover ?

From what I can see she looks like plank on frame but there is no access to the inside, the hull measures 28 1/2" plus the bowsprit 5" (making it 33 1/2" overall).  It measures 7 1/4" across the beam and the depth from deck to bottom of keel is 9". The mast is 37 1/2" from deck to top.

Anyhow, I'll post a couple of photo's and maybe you can help , she's seen better days but haven't we all  :-))
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imsinking

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2016, 11:21:32 am »

Could be a SOLID hull ?
Bill
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2016, 11:30:27 am »

Hi Bill, I dont think so, it feels too light and it sounds very hollow when you tap the hull.
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JimG

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2016, 01:39:14 pm »

Hi Flyte

you should get in touch with the Vintage Model Yacht Group
http://www.vmyg.org.uk/
they are the specialists on old pond yachts.

Jim
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2016, 02:52:29 pm »

Hi Jim, I sent a message and some photos to Russel Potts a few days ago, I'm hoping he gets back to me. Then I found this forum and thought I might as well bug you lot as well  {-) I cant wait to get started but want to gather info first so I have an idea of what I'm doing, tbh I dont know my mizzen poop from my leaward foresail thingy but I'm learning.
The main thing for me right now is to find out as close as I can what it actually is and should look like.
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John W E

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2016, 04:28:48 pm »

Hi ya Flyte
are you a true Geordie - just like me :-) - born within spitting distance of the Tyne - there are a good few of us on here.    Hey, have you got your Geordie passport :-)   :-)) :-))

Been looking at the pics of the yacht you have put on here and judging by, what appears to be a 'crack' in the hull woodwork - indicates to me to that this is what is known as a 'bread and butter built hull'.   Instead of the layers of wood being horizontal, they have been done vertical. 

The hull reminds me of those that come from the plans which were published by My Hobbies Weekly.   I have had a search on the websites such as Ebay etc; and there are one or two which come close to yours - but - not exactly the same.   The other thing I did was type in 'Model Pond Yacht Plans' into google search images and there are one or two which come close to what yours looks like.

Another fellow Geordie - bit further South that Newcastle but not near the Wear :-)

John
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2016, 05:20:44 pm »

Hiya Bluebird, I am indeed a true Geordie, born at St Mary's Hospital Newcastle, bred up the coast, now in Whitley Bay and retired  :-)

Thanks for the info, the more I read the more confused I get ! bread and butter ? dont you mean stottie and lurpak ?  uhhhhh more reading. I might get a better idea when I strip the paint from the hull. I'll get the blowtorch out tomorrow and.........I'm kidding !

I've just had a very close inspection of the hull and there are no splits, maybe its the old paint making it look that way.

Al giv a a bit of a scrape wi me breed nife n see hoo it gans the morra, a winit hort a tho, al gan canny...or I could always use nitromors !
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John W E

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2016, 05:56:01 pm »

hi there Flyte
garn canny with the breed neef when ya scraping the owld hull - best give it a bit rub with some coarse sand piarpa forst :-)
Ive put a link on to the guy who is building this model - it might give you an idea of bread and butter - so best not send your lass to the Co-op for some lorpak just yit :-)
http://www.dickwightman.com/modelyachting/footloose/buidlingfootloose.html
john
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2016, 06:27:03 pm »

Aaaah now I get it.... bread as in slices of wood.....butter as in glue !

I dont think my boat is built this way though, it sounds very hollow, like its planked, and considering the hefty lead weight on the keel its still pretty light (ok... I have to stop tapping it now).

Tomorrow I start stripping the paint off and hopefully it will be obvious, yes, even to me !
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2016, 07:10:01 pm »

The suspense got too much so I went down to the shed for a bit of a scrape, about 1 inch down the side I found a thin red, almost fluorescent band of what must be glue but no pins/nails so it must be "bread and butter" construction, you were right  :-)) I'm just amazed at how light it is. I had to go through 5 layers of paint, white, cream, white, green and beige which looks like an undercoat.

The wood is Mahogany, of that I'm sure. Any idea what sort of glue it would be ? and would it hold up to going back into the water ?
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John W E

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2016, 07:37:17 pm »

:-)  Possibility it might be Cascamite? or that aero glue ... erm ... some may remember what you call that - a forerunner of Cascamite - best bet is to strip the paint back, see what state the hull is in and then seal the hull.   ~Various options to sealing the hull; no doubt the forum members will suggest ways as well.

John
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derekwarner

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2016, 07:54:06 pm »

In 1965 we were still using Animal Glue in school.......you know.....to liquefy the glue, it's in a cast iron pot that sits in a heated boiling water container

The glue was made from horses hoofs  ;D.......[the pungent odour is only noticeable when the gelatinous goopy glue is hot] an immensely strong joint, but not waterproof

Derek

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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2016, 08:32:25 pm »

hmmmm glue, I've used hide/animal glue many times, I repair guitars and sometimes nothing else will work, though 90% of the time I use waterproof tightbond. Hide glue is always a shade of brown and dries semi translucent. I also remember cascamite from being a kid, we used it making wooden molds for fibreglass, as i remember it was a reddish brown colour so maybe that's it.

You can still buy cascamite in powder form,

I'll see if I can get a close up to show the colour tomorrow, it really is bright red.

I never thought I'd be showing people photo's of my glue  {-)
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hammer

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2016, 11:29:01 am »

Yes I can remember using this pink glue in the 50s when apprentice. It was a 2 part glue developed for wooden aircraft production WW2. The cream powder mixed with water and spread on one surface, the red liquid painted on the other surface. Press the two together and it set quite quickly, but not instantaneous. The name escapes me but it was ether Casco or Cascamite.  Hammer.
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John W E

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2016, 12:37:41 pm »

This is the glue I was thinking of/ Resorcinol Glue

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/33/a7336433.shtml

john
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2016, 02:58:27 pm »

I've been "trawling" through the old plans on Google and going over photos etc and while there are loads of similar hulls I cant find a keel/rudder the same as mine.

I've been "pondering" (sorry) her age and from the brass fittings and the age of the wood and finish, I'm guessing 40's or 50's

I'm pretty sure the glue used on the hull is Cascamite and would assume that once the hull is refinished it will be watertight and usable.

Lots of interesting comments and info ! thank you guys.
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Netleyned

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2016, 03:02:52 pm »

We used Aerolite two part
Mix the cream and paint on
The hardener when building
our PBK canoe frames.
Anyone remember them?
Percy Blandford Kayaks.
Also used on my Bell Woodworking
GP14 Dinghy kit.
My first kit build and at 1:1 scale.


Ned
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Liverbudgie

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2016, 04:30:59 pm »

In 1965 we were still using Animal Glue in school.......you know.....to liquefy the glue, it's in a cast iron pot that sits in a heated boiling water container

The glue was made from horses hoofs  ;D.......[the pungent odour is only noticeable when the gelatinous goopy glue is hot] an immensely strong joint, but not waterproof

Derek

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiu-bWLtOrQAhXMUrwKHSbHDK4QFggrMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAnimal_glue&usg=AFQjCNEHKWt2smekpVjQb_m_TGexVxE5Lw&bvm=bv.141320020,d.dGc

AAh yes! That takes me back, the aroma pervading though my Fathers workshop at Liverpool Uni he would use nothing else - he didn't believe in all these new fangled things - apart from the original araldite.

LB
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2016, 04:51:26 pm »

When you think of the musical instruments going back to the 17th century that are still as beautiful, just as strong, and play even better, it makes you think.
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John W E

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2016, 05:59:27 pm »

hi all
I know its a bit off topic - but - I often wonder about today's generation of school children, and how they are missing out on certain subjects in education such as woodwork, metal work, tech drawing  - those of us from the old school - may still remember  that we used to get all of these three subjects in the curriculum each week.   I am a firm believer that these subjects give us all a good grounding for life skills.   I wonder if the new generation know the difference between HB pencils and what a T square is for :-)

I mean old glues bring back a lot of memories - today they would use glue for other purposes other than what its actually for :-) I bet the PC brigade are proud of themselves for what they have done to the younger generation and what they have taken from them.

John
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flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2016, 07:20:38 pm »

Its an absolute tragedy, our kids are being taught the values of Politicians, they all think their future will be wearing a tie, sitting back and raking in money, the world cant work like that (except London does). We rely to heavily on the money movers and have turned out backs on honest work. We have been sold out, so many places that made this country rich and brought about social change for the better are now virtually derelict and forgotten.

I was using a lathe and a milling machine when I was 12, I cast my first sinker mold in aluminum when I was 12, I stabbed myself in the hand with my first chisel when I was 13  :embarrassed: it gave me a certain outlook on life and made realise there is no free ticket.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2016, 07:52:18 pm »

It was certainly happening in the late eighties as my CDT (Craft Design Technology) teacher who got me into model making through some old Military Modelling magazines he gave me said he had a budget of 80 for the academic year for materials and replacement parts like saw blades!

It was the height of the business and computers eighties and our classes were rationed on what we could make. I remember in my last year of primary school being very envious of the first year of secondary school  kids showing off their paint scrapers that they made in CDT. Made from a piece of sheet steel with two bits of acrylic stuck on the sides to make a handle sounds like fifteen minutes work to us adults, but to kids experienced only in cardboard and maybe some balsa, this was cutting edge technology! Anyhow, in my first year of secondary school the budget was so tight only one of the four form groups could make scrapers and my group was one of the unlucky ones  <:(

I have heard about a design and tech teacher that had to blunt the tips of stanley knife blades to prevent risk of injury through cuts, I assume that indeed many of our young'ns are being humoured through design technology. I recall hearing it on Radio4 a few years back.

Trequire some common sense
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Subculture

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2016, 10:44:56 pm »

the world cant work like that (except London does).

A part of London does, the rest of the Capital gets on with it like everyone else.

flyte

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2016, 11:29:53 pm »

Yes I meant no offense, I've worked in London, have friends in London, and its an outrage what our politicians have in the past and are doing now, it really is a social cleansing, expanding the culture of greed that dominates their idea of Utopia, a home for the rich with no place for anyone beneath their social standing. When I said "London" I was wrong, I meant of course the City and its Financial institutions, I apologise. 
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roycv

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Re: Needing help with identity and some advise
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2016, 09:18:05 am »

Hi I remember school from the the beginning of the 50's,I liked woodwork and the sciences and English but liking woodwork was regarded as having failed early on in life!  And that was by fellow school pupils!  But much as now I thought my own thoughts and got on with what I liked.
Later we had a circular saw but you had to be supervised to use it, which I would very much go along with anyway.  I still have the boxes I made for my Meccano set over 60 years ago, still has my Meccano in as well.
I learnt most of what I remember from a stand in woodwork teacher who was very practical and showed you simple ways of doing things.  Our regular head of woodwork was a lazy skiving git and frequently off work, I caught him out once as well.
When you had made something you paid a notional sum for the wood you had used and that seemed to fund things.
regards Roy

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