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Author Topic: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?  (Read 76479 times)

C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #275 on: February 01, 2017, 09:45:28 PM »

I made this video a couple of weeks back, thought I would post it now to keep the thread warm as for some reason my video camera doesn't want to recognise a memory card so my video exploits have come to an abrupt halt!

https://youtu.be/uWYJ2W-5K7k

Using the pot control on the RC TX you can see the how the turrets rotate.

When I unravel issues with camera I will update you with my latest...

Regards

C-3PO
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ballastanksian

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #276 on: February 01, 2017, 09:50:47 PM »

Seeing that and imagining those to be turrets. Any battleship so equipped is going to look amazing :-))
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Bob K

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #277 on: February 01, 2017, 09:56:13 PM »

When warships equipped with this system start patrolling the numerous club lakes and shows everyone is going to want to upgrade.  Just think of a WW1 fleet in line of battle, all training on the same target !
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Colin Bishop

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #278 on: February 01, 2017, 10:06:38 PM »

Wow!

Colin
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #279 on: February 01, 2017, 10:16:32 PM »

Now that is impressive! :-))
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ballastanksian

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #280 on: February 01, 2017, 10:35:30 PM »

When warships equipped with this system start patrolling the numerous club lakes and shows everyone is going to want to upgrade.  Just think of a WW1 fleet in line of battle, all training on the same target !

The idea is making me warm and fuzzy inside Bob.
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #281 on: February 01, 2017, 10:48:33 PM »

Lovely - looks like you're nearly there!


I'm currently turning 'flowcharts' into 'code'. The job gets in the way, though - doing a mad 50hrs/week atm - so I'm now aiming for (see what I did there?) mid-February. I'd love to 'compare notes' at that time.


My video to follow!


Andy
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C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #282 on: February 08, 2017, 09:09:47 AM »

Hi Guys,

Another query from me - when the guns are fired how did different turrets fire - was the fire command communicated electrically so they all fired together, by voice comms so a human pressed the fire button so slight variance in fire execution, or something else?

Or should I be incorporating a configuration option to fire with small random delay or exactly at the same time?

The reason for asking is I am finalising the "Gun Fire" aspect of the application and wanted to understand if there should be a fractional delay between each turret firing ( assuming that it's not in the NFZ) or do they fire exactly at the same time

Thanks in advance

PS Has anybody used these as a heater for gun smoke? - I played with these last night in my utility room - lots of smoke - just as well my wife was away on business!

3D printer heating element -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/221425111395?lpid=122&chn=ps&adgroupid=33676502101&rlsatarget=pla-270397383003&adtype=pla&poi=&googleloc=9046187&device=c&campaignid=707291931&crdt=0

C-3PO
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Bob K

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #283 on: February 08, 2017, 09:40:49 AM »

As far as I understand, the overall command to fire was given by voice pipe and someone in the turret pressed the fire button, so a slight variable delay might have been involved, but not much.  Setting the gun elevation for the range allowed for firing at the top of the roll, which was better observable from the control top rather than from inside the turret.  There must have been feedback from each turret when "ready to fire", so the control top had to take that into account. 

I will check out your 3D printer heater link.  Could be useful  :-))
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #284 on: February 08, 2017, 05:43:28 PM »

I think the answer very much depends on what ship you are depicting and at what stage of the war as continual improvements were made in fire control arrangements as ships came in for refit. Towards the end of the war I think that most, if not all,  capital ships of the Grand Fleet would have been fitted so as to allow the gunnery team in the director to actually fire the guns.

The information is out there if you have the time to look for it!

Colin
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C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #285 on: February 08, 2017, 06:20:27 PM »

Hi Guys,

Another query from me - when the guns are fired how did different turrets fire - was the fire command communicated electrically so they all fired together, by voice comms so a human pressed the fire button so slight variance in fire execution, or something else?

Or should I be incorporating a configuration option to fire with small random delay or exactly at the same time?

C-3PO

I will make it configurable then hopefully it will work in most situations...

C-3PO
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #286 on: February 08, 2017, 06:50:20 PM »

Just fetched out my copy of Dreadnought Gunnery and The Battle of Jutland The Question of Fire Control by John Brooks, it's a heavy read but I have found out the following about fire control in Dreadnought type battleships:


By 1906, the supply of almost all the fire control instruments for Dreadnought had been arranged. However, after successful experiments aboard Duke of Edinburgh, it was decided that, in future, the clocks and range and deflection transmitters to the individual turrets should be moved below to a transmitting station (TS), protected by armour, near the base of each mast.  The TS would be connected by a large voice pipe to its top, where the range finder and Dumaresq remained, 'the initial range and spotting corrections and deflection' being passed by voice popes and the 'rate' by special electrical transmitters.


In the TS of the first Dreadnoughts , a clock operator would 'call the 25s and also call the range every time a full hundred yards is reached' while the transmitter men (one per turret) would rotate the transmitter handles at each 25-yard step. At the guns, the sight-setters then had to read the ranges and deflections off the receivers and set the sights accordingly, although, by 1909, they had provided with telephone headsets, through which they hear the range steps being called in from the TS.




As I said it's a complicated book and I'll scan through it to find further information  :-))
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #287 on: February 09, 2017, 12:06:18 AM »

Always good for a one-stop shop is the Dreadnought Project's page on fire control.


The information under Spotting Rules is good for the post-Jutland era: salvos of 'three or more guns' in an attempt to straddle, double salvos to help precisely define the position of the enemy, and then director firing of, basically, any gun that's loaded to maximise the fall of shot and minimise the 'wait' time for a loaded gun.


...and all that seems to infer that a gunnery officer is doing the physical trigger-pulling for any mix of available weapons.


Andy
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #288 on: February 09, 2017, 12:17:58 AM »

And special mention should be made for the 'Usborne Fall of Shot Indicator'.


Steampunk at its best.  :-))


A slowly rotating drum with a helical track in it receives a ball bearing as a gun is fired. The ball bearing moves along the track to a point where it meets a switch which forces a buzzer to sound. The switch's position is adjusted for range and hence the expected time-of-flight for that salvo. In effect, as the ball bearing travels a few inches, and the shells a few thousand yards, the spotters get an audible cue for when their shells should be striking the target.


Got to love this kind of ancient mechanical technology.  %%


Andy
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #289 on: February 09, 2017, 02:05:27 AM »

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Bob K

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #290 on: February 09, 2017, 09:28:49 AM »

And special mention should be made for the 'Usborne Fall of Shot Indicator'.


Steampunk at its best.  :-))


A slowly rotating drum with a helical track in it receives a ball bearing as a gun is fired. The ball bearing moves along the track to a point where it meets a switch which forces a buzzer to sound. The switch's position is adjusted for range and hence the expected time-of-flight for that salvo. In effect, as the ball bearing travels a few inches, and the shells a few thousand yards, the spotters get an audible cue for when their shells should be striking the target.


Got to love this kind of ancient mechanical technology.  %%


Andy

Your description of this overly complex mechanism, plus descriptions of the Dreyer Fire Control Table which required nine operators, gives me the increasing suspicion of evidence of the design handiwork of Frederick Rowland Emett.  That ball bearing and buzzer is a dead give away. 

It may also be true that at the heart of the Type 45 fire control system lies a single Arduino ?
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C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #291 on: February 09, 2017, 11:05:37 AM »

Anybody got any good sound files of a large gun firing ( ideally just a single gun)  or can point me in the direction on the net where they can be found?

Also what is happening when these guns move down after firing - is it some of the recoil?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVvEPTYrcXA


C-3PO
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #292 on: February 09, 2017, 11:31:02 AM »

The gun should recoil and then run back out again as it drops to the loading angle.

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #293 on: February 10, 2017, 12:43:13 AM »

Anybody got any good sound files of a large gun firing ( ideally just a single gun)  or can point me in the direction on the net where they can be found?

Also what is happening when these guns move down after firing - is it some of the recoil?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVvEPTYrcXA


C-3PO

Yes, the larger the calibre the greater the "whip" is, proportional to the charge used. Think of it as you fire a rifle, if you don't hold it firmly it "flies up the down".

Larger charges produce "faster" recoil, runout. All normal ballistics.

You will note in the clip the last charge bag is kept separate from the first three bags and "rammed" with the next three charge bags, total charge six bags.

Because these are Breech loaders, (BL) meaning no cartridge case is used, not that it is loaded from the breech, when the gun recoils the breech does not automatically open to eject the cartridge case.

Once the recoil forces have ceased, happens quickly but visible, the gun "returns" ready for reloading.

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C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #294 on: March 04, 2017, 01:14:13 PM »

Hi

As with most projects life gets in the way.

This is a video of where I was some weeks ago when my video camera decided not to play ball.

Hopefully it gives you an idea of where I have got to...

AUDIO CONTENT - Make sure you have audio enabled...

https://youtu.be/qi1yiM26eAM

Notes

3 of the turrets in the Gun Fire shot decided to disconnect (operators fault)
The Gun fire clip is for demonstration only - it shows each flash and audio in under independent control - clearly the sequence does not reflect real life

So there you have - that's all folks until the next exciting episode

Regards

C-3PO
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ballastanksian

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #295 on: March 04, 2017, 10:15:36 PM »

Real or not, the fact is the system you have developed is pretty much there. We will never be able to recreate gun fire and control completely, but this looks like it will meet most users requirements.

Good one C3PO  :-))
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C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #296 on: March 05, 2017, 10:50:30 AM »

Sound files - can anybody point me in the direction of sound files of large guns firing? ( downloadable would be great) but if decent quality then happy to purchase...

Thank in advance
C-3PO
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Bob K

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #297 on: March 05, 2017, 11:04:49 AM »

Several YouTube videos of big guns firing.  This one is from USS Wisconsin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVvEPTYrcXA

Individual guns are firing in 1-2-3 sequence.  Suggest use a good sound editor to capture the first gun in a sequence, shorten it to omit the end (before start of second gun), then append the end of the third gun firing.
Might need a bit of trial and error but the overlap is not too critical.

For purely sound files you are limited to much smaller calibres from what I can find.
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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #298 on: March 05, 2017, 11:53:05 AM »

Several YouTube videos of big guns firing.  This one is from USS Wisconsin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVvEPTYrcXA

Individual guns are firing in 1-2-3 sequence.  Suggest use a good sound editor to capture the first gun in a sequence, shorten it to omit the end (before start of second gun), then append the end of the third gun firing.
Might need a bit of trial and error but the overlap is not too critical.

For purely sound files you are limited to much smaller calibres from what I can find.

Bob,
That is the same youtube C-3PO referred to in his post 291???
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C-3PO

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Re: T.A.R.G.E.T - Rotating Seven gun turrets?
« Reply #299 on: April 08, 2017, 01:23:55 PM »

Bob,

At the scale you propose to build this ship (HMS Agincourt?)  what would be the calibre (scale units)  of the large guns?

Would I be correct that they where 12" guns which by my reckoning would be 0.125" @ 1:96

Thanks in advance

C-3PO
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