Model Boat Mayhem

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Author Topic: The future of Model Boating ....  (Read 9245 times)

plastic

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2018, 04:49:08 PM »

CPD is the buzzword now - Continual Professional Development.

You are now required to demonstrate evidence that you have kept up with technology, standards and methods.
Getting qualified 50 years ago and hoping it will get you through to retirement is no longer acceptable in the real world.
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tigertiger

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2018, 04:57:18 PM »

@Tugcowboy.
A good video, which brings us onto another good point. We now have access to the internet, which not only fills some of the gaps left by all of the engineering/etc colleges that shut down, but actually offers a lot more focused and versatile access to skills teaching. It is also easier to cross between disciplines. Even if you don't get a certificate. OK you still need to make stuff really learn, but ignorance is no longer an excuse.


You no longer need to go to college to learn practical skills. You no longer need a classroom to be told what books have the information you need. There are many online resources, including video tutorials, text searches, blogs and forums.
If a picture paints a thousand words, a video is so much more.
There are so many opportunities for getting 'self taught'. There are lots of teachers and video tutorials. If you don't get it the first time, rewind. If you don't like the teacher, go to another video and get the same information from another source. If you want to know how to make an electrical doohicky , you don't need to do an EE course first. You can just search for that one task.


I did woodwork in school, to O'Level. It taught me how to read a woodwork drawing, how to square a piece of timber, use a selection of hand tools, use a lathe/turn a piece of wood and make some basic joints. I have taken up woodworking again in the last 2 or 3 years. I have learned how to use new techniques for joinery and cabinet making. Using new types of hardware. New types of tools that are available and reviews, without having to subscribe to magazines that I may never have known about, unless WHS had them. How to set up and use different types of power tools safely and correctly. How to make my own tools and jigs, being able to search for jigs that have been invented/modified/improved upon by clever home engineers.


Some people have a very strong disposition against buying online. Without online buying many of the tools I have bought I would not have been able to get back home, unless B&Q stocked them. Power tools can be bought by some specialist suppliers, but finding them, visiting them (perhaps an hours drive each way), and then finding they only stock one or two brands, and because they are specialist shops they charge premium prices.


Without the internet, I would not be woodworking. It has opened up new skill set for me, and put me in touch with other like minded enthusiasts and some professional craftsman I would not have know about before.


Long live the internet.
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Baldrick

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2018, 05:02:43 PM »

Well, even I know what GOG's are cos I'm one   
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Perkasaman2

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2018, 07:08:53 PM »

There's no virtue in being a GG or GOG. There is no wisdom in this behaviour.
Model boats as a hobby is changing with the generations and opportunities have never been better in many respects, especially those on offer through the internet.
There's no special magic to cutting filing, shaping or bodging components in order to make a representation of something. I suspect most of our younger generation view this as not worth the candle although they often admire the results at the pondside. Most, I suspect, don't have the time or inclination to devote to these traditional activities in model boat building. Their lungs will definitely benefit.
A wider range of RTR models is required to hook the younger generation and get them bitten by the bug.
Model boating is deceptively expensive and less expensive avenues in the current financial climate are needed.


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imsinking

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2018, 08:54:39 PM »

I think the point of "model boat's is dying" is being missed here . . .
A poor education system (more interested in places in an academic world) & poor teachers (bad communicators)
Kids should be being prepared for the REAL WORLD , teach them to make their brains tell their hands what to do from an early age , not mash keys on a computer / calculator . . if the correct curriculum is applied computers should play no part in school life (what are they going to do if their batteries die?)
All together now . . .1 and 1 are two . . . . i before e except after C . . .there's a U in colour  O0  judging by the AWFUL spelling on eBay etc their spell checkers are CHINESE . . . I'm of the opinion that a WHOLE generation of kids has been lost because of this . . . come on then , let the abuse begin . . .  :P
Bill 
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Subculture

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2018, 09:52:46 PM »

A wider range of RTR models is required to hook the younger generation and get them bitten by the bug.
Model boating is deceptively expensive and less expensive avenues in the current financial climate are needed.

Don't agree. RTR models are five minute wonders, little effort goes into their procurement hence the satisfaction of owning and operating is much diminished.

Model boating can be as cheap or as expensive as you wish, other modelling sectors can be very expensive in comparison.

As I recall model boating was never a particularly youthful hobby. Most people engaged in it back in the 1970's and 80's when I was growing up, tended to be in their 30's or 40's as a minimum age, okay hardly old, but not the teenage or twentysomethings either. I think you would have to go back to the '50's or 60's to witness wide participation in hobbies like ours by that age bracket.

plastic

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2018, 10:07:30 PM »

Years ago, there was no tv worth watching, no computers, no mobile phones, no internet.
Young lads had to do something (apart from girls) - so it was football, fishing or model making.
Modelling was cheap, accessible and a group activity - even if it was shooting them with air-rifles to make your own war films.
Kids of today have too many things to occupy their time which require minimal effort or engagement so modelling is WAY down their list.

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Subculture

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2018, 10:21:22 PM »

Home computers were still pretty new, and not much cop back in the '70's and 80's, no mobiles or internet, but I still didn't see much interest in modelmaking amongst my age group.

I work in a technical field, which went from having quite a senior staff to a very junior staff in a few years, so I now work with a lot of people in their 20's and early 30's. None of them are interested in modelmaking or crafting activities, one or two like tinkering with cars, but what most mainly like to do when they have spare time is go travelling.

me3

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2018, 10:23:36 PM »

Honestly it's opinions like that who put young people off. Why would a young person want to enter a hobby where people are so condescending towards them. It's so tiresome to hear we didn't have a TV in our day and all that. Just because TV's exist doesn't mean to say no one in the young generation can use tools etc.


I have probably offended you all now which isn't my intention but you asked why young people don't get into the hobby then continue to say that we are all too obsessed with TV, phones etc. It's enough to put me off it to be honest.


Im sorry if I seem blunt but I am just really frustrated about this,
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Subculture

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2018, 10:39:45 PM »

The nature of debate is that you're not always going to hear what you wish, or to put it another way to have an opinion will always cause offence to someone.

Here's something to consider, you're a young chap interested in the hobby. Do you know many others in your age bracket that do the same?

Andyn

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2018, 01:18:59 AM »

Largely, I agree with Me3. The incredibly condescending nature of some is why I stopped flying aircraft, and if it weren't for the fact that I'm in 'the fraternity' as it was put earlier here then I probably wouldn't be boating anymore either. There's one particularly abrasive, condescending, patronising individual at my club.
There's nothing on the TV worth watching, but I have mananged to spend about 400 hours of my life playing Overwatch...
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tigertiger

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2018, 02:26:39 AM »

That reminds me of my youthful experience with clubs. Clubs I joined were because I had a friend already involved. One I quit because the senior members treated juniors as a nuisance, no-one was friendly. This was the small local golf club.
Another club I had to quit because I could not afford to buy my own archery equipment. The club had loan equipment, but it was not really up to any serious competition. There were a few senior members who had state of the art equipment and took the sport very seriously, and they had no time for juniors. But generally the club was welcoming and friendly. I went on a regional competition with the club, lifts from other members, and there were a lot of other young archers at the 'clout shoot'.


One valuable asset to the archery club was the chairman. He was in his 80s, not elitist, and went out of his way to coach, mentor, encourage, and generally welcome all of the juniors, as well as potential and new members. He was not focused on doing his hobby during club meets.


Perhaps that is something that model boat clubs' officers can think about. I think often people are a bit reserved about coming forward, but as a club officer it is perfectly appropriate to go over to strangers and introduce yourself and the club. Most people you approach will have questions and be pleased to have answers. Conversation started = opportunity seeded. :-))
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plastic

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2018, 05:44:49 AM »

Me3 - It's not condesending, it's the truth - but as with every rule, there will be exceptions.


The very rare young modellers on this forum should look at their peer group and honestly count how many of them are into modelling. And then ask why.

I've worked incredibly hard encouraging younger people into science, engineering - and even modelling - but there are just so many 'cooler' ways of filling their spare time that it's a losing battle.


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tigertiger

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2018, 06:05:57 AM »

If I had a pound for every hobby I have ever considered, checked out and then dropped over the years...
It is something most people do when they are younger, and as we get older and more settled the rate of change slows down.
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TomHugill

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #114 on: July 05, 2018, 07:14:53 AM »

I apologise if it came across as snobbery - what I was trying (but obviously failed) to convey was it's actually a real disappointment that there's nowhere around training anyone for the younger generation who are the least able to travel long distances every day for their 'local' college.

What I was trying to say was that there's nowhere left training anyone in engineering - it's all shut down through lack of enough  interest to keep them going. I was literally the last year as it all closed right behind me so anyone wishing to get into engineering finds their paths much more difficult or completely blocked - which puts most off.

All this does is make people more reluctant to spend money on something where they know they lack the basic skills and so the chance of it going in the loft or on ebay is elevated.

They are more likely to buy an RTR if they want an RC boat.

If they want something more involved, then really, the kit manufactures need to make their models a lot more straight forward to put together - but that would involve spending a lot more time and money in the development phase - which will crank the kit price up significantly without any guarantee that people will buy.

This opens a real niche in the market - currently filled by the Revell Flower Class - as the only large model that a basic Airfix modeller can progress into RC boats. It only requires the transfer of RC car building skills and you're up and running.

The large torpedo boat models (Italeri & Lindberg) are the next logical step - still using RC car thinking - it's a 'hop-up' with small risk to use bigger motors, bigger batteries, high current ecs, maybe water cooling and lights - and they'll have to solve a few more engineering issues.

Maybe their next step would be something more challenging...


Hey Plastic, thanks for the reply. I'm an engineer by trade (31 so at the younger end of the model boating spectrum) maybe I've been lucky but at primary school we were let loose with wood, hot glue, motors pulleys etc and built everything from a Tudor house to a computer controlled press (after going on a trip to our local Stadco factory, ironically where I worked for a year between uni and starting on the railway), we built cars and even a hovercraft! I did resistant materials at secondary school and there was nay a mood board to be seen, although we did get to use the CNC router and cad up designs for a child's toy on one project. College I did product design where we had access to lathes, milling machines, and various other workshop tools, I learnt how to braze, other how to weld to some extent depending on our project, university even had a practical outlet in the form of design make test projects, obviously not as rigerous from a machining perspective as your education but there was opportunity. The formula student folks to get more involved in the fabrication side, and that something most universitys offer. My friend who did his aircraft maintenance degree (maybe? HNC? I can't remember!) did a lot a lot more of the machining and manual skills side. I believe the apprentices where I work do too and we take on 100 odd a year, so I'd say there's definitely opertunity if you're that way inclined, but would agree it takes more seeking out than back in the day.


Regarding model boats I think you're right that higher quality kits like the newer easy build graupner ones are probably more appealing to some one newer to the hobby and RC conversions of plastic kits are 100% a great niche for the less experienced. In the model sub world Ron Perrotts found that niche with the skipjack, a nice plastic kit which is detailed and straight forward to put together, Ron makes a high quality conversion which is straight forward enough a novice can get fantastic result. And you know what they sold like hot cakes, you see loads of them at meets, I think it just goes to show the latent demand.


Appologies if my response was a little brusk, the proper.engineee part rubbed me up the wrong was as I've seen so many talented young engineers as I've progressed through may career.
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me3

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #115 on: July 05, 2018, 07:16:53 AM »

I know a couple of people who are into modelling but not many my age. But you asked why, I told you a good reason and then look how you behave. Perhaps read what you have written about the younger generation and then ask yourself why they don't get involved. Anyway, that's my last piece on this topic, had enough of it!
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plastic

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2018, 07:21:36 AM »

I know a couple of people who are into modelling but not many my age. But you asked why, I told you a good reason and then look how you behave. Perhaps read what you have written about the younger generation and then ask yourself why they don't get involved. Anyway, that's my last piece on this topic, had enough of it!

Nah - that's a bit of a cop-out.People don't magically go and join a club from thin air. They get into modelling alone, get more experienced, enjoy it and then deicide to try to find others doing the same thing as they've become enthused.

Trying to blame the older generation for young people having soooo many different pastimes available to them just doesn't wash.
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TomHugill

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2018, 07:34:38 AM »


As you have so much against us "old boys and our toys", ie boats, tom with your continual snipes over the months may I suggest that you stick to your tanks, go over to a tank forum where ever one is, and leave us mature model boaters to our outrageous and arrogant self proclaiming comments......it does our egos a power of good to be able to pontificate about what WE know  best. {-) %% :} ;D


cheers, thanks and best wishes on your journey.


Hi Neil, nice to see you're continuing your proud tradition of not reading what I've wrote.


I'm not sure where I've said anything about having something against "you old boys and your toys", would be grossly hypocritical as I've a garage full of them myself! I even went out of my way to say how friendly most of the bury member are and how lucky I've been, it just a couple of particularly GOGs that I can appreciate would be off putting as a younger member if they were your first experience of.the club scene.


I'm a member of serval rctank forums, which in recent years are also booming with the growth in the hobby. But telling me to "go back" there serves no purpose, are you staying because I disagree with you I should find a new hobby? If this was the case Neil there wouldn't be many model boaters left.


You mean what you think you know best? As you know I'm more than happy to disagree with you when you're talking nonsense.   :kiss:
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tigertiger

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2018, 08:12:07 AM »

***Okay, things are getting a little more heated than they need to. ***


We are descending into them and us territory, which never achieves anything other than entrenchment.
When people leave a discussion it does not mean the person remaining is in the right, or that they have won in any real way. It just means the other person no longer want to play the game, and some games are not worth playing.
In the world of modelling it can mean that people choose not enter/leave the clubhouse, which is sadly a part of the problem.


For everyone, young, old, even myself, I am reminded of something someone once said to me.
Nobody likes to be criticized, but reflecting on the criticism, even if it is 80% wrong I can still work on the other 20%.
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TomHugill

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2018, 08:16:31 AM »

Don't agree. RTR models are five minute wonders, little effort goes into their procurement hence the satisfaction of owning and operating is much diminished.

Model boating can be as cheap or as expensive as you wish, other modelling sectors can be very expensive in comparison.

As I recall model boating was never a particularly youthful hobby. Most people engaged in it back in the 1970's and 80's when I was growing up, tended to be in their 30's or 40's as a minimum age, okay hardly old, but not the teenage or twentysomethings either. I think you would have to go back to the '50's or 60's to witness wide participation in hobbies like ours by that age bracket.


I disagree to some extent this doesn't entirely square with my model tank experience or my personal experience with boats. I think RTR or second hand model draws you in, give you experience of using the thing and get you hooked, in the rctankworld you see so many start with a cheap RTR theb they start upgrading, detailing and painting which is a gentler (in some respects) entry and starting off with a kit (especially of the quality of some of our model boat kits), but by their second or third tank they're tackling resin conversion kits, some 3d printing their own stuff, the progression is quite common and really nice to see. Now the rub will be whether people prefer building to operating, I now probably lean to the former but if the learning curve to start with is too steep then many won't get that far.
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tigertiger

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2018, 08:48:09 AM »

RTR can be both a potential 'hook' to model making, and direct access to RC model operating. Sometimes people who buy a model, RTR or kit, will loose interest. Back in the 80s people tried to get me into RC cars, I lost interest very quickly. Short run times, very difficult to control for a novice, but I could see how some people get hooked.


I don't think there is any one answer, there never is. But more choices for hobby entry (any hobby) has to be good. RTR is one route. ARTR is another. My first model, was ARTR Thunder Tiger Victoria. It took a weekend to build and rig, with household tools, which was not too intimidating. I also needed to source and buy RC gear (TX-RX set, and servos). I also got many long hours of sailing out of it.


It is easy to want to chase the 'Holy Grail' of our model genre, for me it was the Valdivia (out of my price range), or the Atlantis (beyond my skill levels as well as price range). There will always be room for cheap and cheerful not too difficult  options, like the Club 500, Springers, Revell Flower Class, and Seaport Tug conversions. Perhaps there are some pointers here for manufacturers.
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jaymac

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2018, 08:51:30 AM »

Have'nt you built that Conqueror yet Tom ;D
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TomHugill

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2018, 08:57:36 AM »

Have'nt you built that Conqueror yet Tom ;D


Sub or tank? I don't think I have either!!
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TomHugill

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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2018, 09:00:45 AM »

RTR can be both a potential 'hook' to model making, and direct access to RC model operating. Sometimes people who buy a model, RTR or kit, will loose interest. Back in the 80s people tried to get me into RC cars, I lost interest very quickly. Short run times, very difficult to control for a novice, but I could see how some people get hooked.


I don't think there is any one answer, there never is. But more choices for hobby entry (any hobby) has to be good. RTR is one route. ARTR is another. My first model, was ARTR Thunder Tiger Victoria. It took a weekend to build and rig, with household tools, which was not too intimidating. I also needed to source and buy RC gear (TX-RX set, and servos). I also got many long hours of sailing out of it.


It is easy to want to chase the 'Holy Grail' of our model genre, for me it was the Valdivia (out of my price range), or the Atlantis (beyond my skill levels as well as price range). There will always be room for cheap and cheerful not too difficult  options, like the Club 500, Springers, Revell Flower Class, and Seaport Tug conversions. Perhaps there are some pointers here for manufacturers.


Intresting you should mention the Atlantis, I'd never have had the time or inclination to build it over the other stuff I've got waiting, however I picked up one secondhand for a steal and it's one of my favourites to sail, infact it's what spured me to snaffle an unbuilt Valdivia when one came for sale.
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Re: Model boating dying?
« Reply #124 on: July 05, 2018, 09:34:05 AM »

Hi TT don't sell yourself short Valdivia and Atlantis are just a bit bigger and more to do.  I was very disappointed not to get the kit review job for Valdivia.  I had met the salesman at Dortmund who had been on the full size boat and supplied the photos from which the kit was made and wrote a short atricle in IMM.  I sailed the model and looked carefully at her and she could be improved.
Personally I would not want to build a 5 foot long warship, not my thing, but loved your yacht TT.

On the RTR front 90+% of the model railway equipment rolling stock in the smaller gauges is ready made and ready to run and they have a very large following check out the number of visitors to a model railway exhibition. 
I think that if buying a rtr boat brings someone into the hobby then this is a good thing, getting them to join a club may not be on their agenda, just have to show it is a nice thing to do.The sale of the Joysway yacht is to my mind enormous and worldwide.  Getting to gether with a one design yacht and racing is just fun.

Thirty years ago in our club there was a lot of shall we say disregard for non-scratch built models be they engineering or marine.  It was in the days when we had awards and judges at our exhibition.  As I was involved in the exhibition it became clear that hardly any models fitted the 'scratch built' categories and requirements.  I revised the various conditions for entry with help from some National judges to reflect what the club was doing.  It was done against some internal opposition but challenging the doubters for a better solution worked.
Lately with the age of the club advancing we do have some new models, not many and we just like to show them off at our exhibition.  We have made provision for RTR as an exhibit with a trophy decided by some committee members.  I should say that all committee members have jobs in the running of the club.

One of the things I was party to changing was to have a more friendly involvement with other local clubs so we meet up at the exhibition and BETWEEN us we put on a variety of interests a little of everything.
It is great to see the formation of a new model boat club in Hemel Hempstead, it takes time and perseverence and Klunk is to be congratulated on his involvement.You cannot force anyone into a pastime just encourage the ones that show an interest.  I know it has been said there are not so many new kits on the market but to a newcomer there are a lot to choose from.kind regards
Roy


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