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Author Topic: Resurrecting the K Class  (Read 19385 times)

Bob K

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Resurrecting the K Class
« on: January 15, 2017, 08:16:57 PM »

Resurrecting the K Class

I got back into model making six years ago, after a break of some 40 years.  Quite a few successful builds since then, including an (ultimately) fully operational semi-submersible.  In the Spring I intend to start building a seven foot split-hull warship with training turrets, which will be a long project as most of it will be “scratch”.

In the mean time I keep looking at my first very unfinished project gathering dust, the first RC boat I tried building after returning to model making. 
Maybe it was a bridge too far at the time, but perhaps it may be possible to resurrect my incomplete K Class submarine.  At the time I ran into too many insurmountable snags, plus total inexperience ended up shelving it, literally.  Maybe now at least I might be able get it going as a surface runner, perhaps more even. . .

So, what have I got.  A 53 inch Dean’s fibreglass hull, a fairly complete Caswell dive module (mostly in parts) that fits the hull, various micro servos, and a Futaba F14 40MHz transmitter (40MHz necessary for underwater reception.)  Also various linkages, magnetic couplers, dive planes, rudder, fail safe unit, dog-bone couplings, and a sub 10 Viper ESC.

Required:  A suitable battery to fit the forward compartment, a compatible but small Rx (the large one I bought with the Tx is in use elsewhere), plus props and shafts etc. The magnetic couplings look like they go through the module end plate, which look to need some form of corrugated rubber boots to keep the water out.  Futaba or compatible Rx’s & crystals seem tough to find nowadays. 

Six years ago I really did try to figure out how it went together, and failed.  Hopefully the intervening years of advice and experience may make me in a better position now.  I learned a lot building HMS Polyphemus and ultimately getting its dive system working.

As I have got most of the parts required I might as well have another try. There will be quite a lot of questions though.
What do you think ?

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Shipmate60

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 08:30:30 PM »

Go for it Bob.


Bob
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ballastanksian

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 08:46:42 PM »

Given the variety of builds you have completed in the intervening years, you are surely equipped materially and emotionally to complete her.

If I may make a suggestion: To prevent any rush to deadline errors or frustrations, perhaps split the project into a pre Agincourt session and a post Agincourt session. Ok, so neither project is work related and so your schedules can be flexible, but if things go slower than expected on the sub, you can get it to a point where the project has a pause point and then resume after you have 'Big Aggie' sailing.

Going straight back in and repairing Poly is an example of your willingness to go back and complete a project, some people would have shoved her in a cupboard forever  <:(
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 09:01:00 PM »

I am onboard :-))


Get the module up and running first. That is a purely engineering project. Then the sub, purely modelling..pretty sure you can handle that bit :}
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tonyH

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 10:08:07 PM »

Another stunner Bob!

Are you following the same wish list as in 2011? I haven't looked through all 7 pages yet but from what I have seen you've definitely got the 'Poly' bug again and the skill to carry it through.

Good luck and have fun :-))
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Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 11:02:21 PM »

Tony:  I never really had a wish list back then, apart from the K9.  I went on to build various surface warships, but have always been drawn to the challenges of unusual vessels.  Yes, not having let the Poly defeat me will be a boost.

unbuiltnautilus:  First a lot of planning to work out the best way/s of approaching this one. Both the module and model are very much interdependent.

ballastanksian:  Thanks for the vote of confidence.  I owe so much to fellow Mayhemer's and those I have met in my travels.  I have around a couple of months before "Big Aggie" hits the slipway (love your nickname), but after that there will be many pauses waiting for bits or waiting for epoxy etc to harden.

Thanks Bob: (Shipmate60)
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 01:52:10 AM »

oh looking forward to this..very interested...I have a caswell wtc to for my vII sub u820..2 inch dual contra rotating moters.actualy I have 2 wtc's.the 2nd I am preparing for installing a 2nd mtronics 10 esc and a action electronics p82 moter.rudder mixer and will see if I have room for the adf2 along with the lipogard and low pressure blower...im using 2 6v 1300mha 2c lipo's in series... would be interested to see your end cap/moter room..is it a 3.5inch wtc? and does it have the gas system or the the newer sas/snort system.. all mine are gas..i prefer it..cant wait to see
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jaymac

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 05:30:55 AM »

Big article on the K class in January Marine Modelling Albeit a static  version
Jay
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 06:23:38 AM »

HI Bob. Looking forward to this one. Will give any advice needed and lots if encouragement.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 09:45:19 AM »

Sorry Bob, I meant the K9 functions, e.g the disappearing funnels etc. ok2
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Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 11:15:59 AM »

Resurrecting the K Class

Some photos needed here.  What threw me back then was the detail instructions were for a similar “Seaview” module, unfortunately looking very little like what I had in front of me.  What I have is a 2,5 inch O/Dia clear tube, 27,75 inches long, divided into three compartments. Forward is the dry battery compartment, aft is the dry motor compartment, with the floodable dive compartment in the middle.  The later has a compressed gas chamber and what looks like a float switch.  Similar to, but unlike Roadrunners photo’s.

I will start with details of the “motor” compartment.  Two small motors, a tray for four micro servos, horizontal drive outlets with dog-bone brass sockets, an aerial wire, and four holes for servo operated rods. Please excuse me if I itemise my lack of understanding on this compartment.





I do get the general principles of how this should work, it is just the practicalities of doing so.

  • Why 4 servos?  No means of securing them.  D/sided tape?  Adhesive?
  • Connecting 4 servo arms via thru-b/head holes will be a 3D wire rod puzzle
  • I will need some form of rubber bellows seals for servo rods?
  • Do front and rear planes operate from the same servo?
  • How to use magnetic couplers to link dive module to controls, and still get it out for charging?
  • No room for a Futaba R-118F Rx, I need an equiv. a lot smaller.
  • Motors wired in parallel.  Do I try to fit Action P82 mixer + 2x P68 ESC’s, or stay with single Sub 10 Viper?
  • Very little chance of keeping Rx well away from ESC/s.
  • External aerial wire terminates in an internal stud.  Can I cut/join aerial wires?
  • Prop shafts will be at quite an angle to motor shafts.
  • Can’t fit prop shafts until final position of cylinder in hull in known.
  • I have a very tiny pump.  Is this for a snorkel system?

Oh dear, I hear you say.  A bit like an electronic Rubic’s Cube, and yes TonyH I am daft enough to hanker for retracting funnels too.. 

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Subculture

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 11:50:14 AM »



  • Why 4 servos?  No means of securing them.  D/sided tape?  Adhesive?
Depends on how many functions you want to operate, it's not obligatory to fill all the spaces. Servos can be fixed in with whatever you like, tape, drill holes for fixing screws etc.

  • Connecting 4 servo arms via thru-b/head holes will be a 3D wire rod puzzle
Welcome to model submarines!

  • I will need some form of rubber bellows seals for servo rods?
No. Rods should already be sealed with o-ring glands in the endcap.

  • Do front and rear planes operate from the same servo?
No, don't do that, separate channels. Rear vanes should be controlled with a leveller, use the front planes for depth control.

  • How to use magnetic couplers to link dive module to controls, and still get it out for charging?
They just click together, not sure what issues you have with that bit.

  • No room for a Futaba R-118F Rx, I need an equiv. a lot smaller.
Corona do a very nice 8-channel synthesized RX on 40mhz from Hobbyking. They work well and are inexpensive.

  • Motors wired in parallel.  Do I try to fit Action P82 mixer + 2x P68 ESC’s, or stay with single Sub 10 Viper?
Tandem control of motors will almost certainly help with turning. Action stuff is too big for many subs IMO. Just fit a second viper, or get a pair of microgyros esc's and use a v-tail mixer.
  • Very little chance of keeping Rx well away from ESC/s.
Common issue with subs. In reality doesn't cause much of an issue

  • External aerial wire terminates in an internal stud.  Can I cut/join aerial wires?
Yes. But the joints must be soldered, and ensure the aerial length remains the original length.

  • Prop shafts will be at quite an angle to motor shafts.
Silicone rubber works well for silent and effective joints, especially when angled. Cheap too.

  • Can’t fit prop shafts until final position of cylinder in hull in known.
Position of cylinder is known on a sub, it needs to be positioned so that the centre of the ballast tank aligns with the centre of gravity. I reckon bang in between the two funnels is a good place to start.

  • I have a very tiny pump.  Is this for a snorkel system?
Yep.

Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 02:09:56 PM »

Awesome Subculture, that makes things a lot clearer.  Thank you.

I shall fit all 4 servos, especially as there are four holes for rods in the endplate. I may use d/sided tape as no possibility to use fixing screws. 
I do not have a leveller (yet).  I guess it can be used to operate the rear planes servo direct.
I will check on that Corona Rx from Hobbyking, hopefully can get an Tx matching crystal for it.
Proportional motor control would be nice, but heck it really is tight for space in there.
Aerial wire is into a stud thru the endcap, so I will use a soldered tag inside.
Dive module positioning:  Sounds obvious when you explain it.  Ta
I will leave that tiny snorkel pump for the mo'.  I need to better understand how it hooks up.

One step at a time.  SO glad to have the advice of a sub expert.  Appreciated.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 02:20:33 PM »

Some levellers work autonomously e.g without a receiver input, others require one. Get a micro gyros one, best on the market and also the least expensive.

Corona receiver is synthesised, so it will bind to any frequency on your TX, crystals not required.

Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2017, 03:02:24 PM »

Corona receiver on order from Hobbyking.  Micro Gyros leveller a bit hard to find on Google.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2017, 03:08:52 PM »

Website not active. Better to speak to Mike directly. 0141 416 2001

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2017, 03:17:05 PM »

I do a pitch control in the AST3 but the failsafe you have should be a combined failsafe & leveller unit. I say, persevere until you encounter problems.
By the way, Fleet or Webra receivers & crystals are Futaba compatible.
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Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2017, 04:35:16 PM »

I believe you are right.  It is an ADF2 "Angle Driver with integrated Failsafe (Gen 2)".  I assume that moves the rear dive planes according to its 3 axis sensor.  2 Servo leads "pitch" and "ballast", plus pins for same designations.  I assume that if signal is lost the "ballast" connector will initiate a blow ballast command as if received from the transmitter.  If I have that right - damned clever for such a tiny unit.

The "mini pump controller" is a minute PCB with a servo lead and a pair of wires.  The PCB is to be soldered direct to the pump terminals.  If it is a snorkel based system then one of the pump outlets must be plumbed into a thin vertical tube through the hull, the other should connect into the ballast chamber.  How the pipes connect from the pump will need more research.

Slowly getting there . . . .
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2017, 05:00:23 PM »

In that case you don't need another leveller, use the one you have. A few points worth remembering when constructing the boat.

Try and make anything above the waterline as thin as possible, this reduces displacement. Thin metal and fibreglass sheet. g10 epoxy glass sheet can be purchased 10 thou thick, can be cut with scissors, yet extremely strong. Thin aluminium and steel sheet from drinks cans, slice open and flatten out.

Keep anything heavy as low in the hull as feasible.

roadrunner440

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2017, 01:42:40 AM »

nice wtc...subculture is absolutely right on all points....he or I can help out..(im not at his level  but am putting u20&u821's moter rooms back together.820's for the 2nd time due to having swsnbn's 25lb savanna cat depthcharging the whole sub&wtc off the high shelf and having to strip down&send in to have the moter shaft seals replaced...if you like I can take some better picks of the control rod setup on my s/d... also I have made a new pic/drawing of how the lipogard and adf2 are installed....as a side note the adf2 comes set to the highest sensativty..it can cause servo twitching at full power for the esc.. I am not using a dedicated failsafe as the lipogard being installed on the vent/blow servo will inhibit diveing when the batts get to low..the lipogard is run to the f/s port on the adf2 and the lead from adf2 f/s side will go to your reciver channel you want the vent/blow servo on...the angle side is easy stern planes servo to adf2 angle pins,lead from adf2 angle side to reciver channel you want stern planes on..hope that helps some



oh and don't solder the reciver lead to the stud for the antenna...just wrap it around the stud and tighten the nut..add washers if you like....the most important thing I can tell you is plan and build with the idea of being able to take it apart for service..for instance I used 2mm banna jacks soldered to the lead that comes from the forward batt room..with the male/female ends set up so b+ can never go to ground because the neg lead coming from the batt room is a male as well as the b+coming from the esc..plug them together after slideing a little heat shring over the wire plug in and shrink.now the batt/engine room leads are covered and serviceable with no cutting of the wires and having to replace/splice...
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roadrunner440

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2017, 04:38:43 AM »

hopefully this will help
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Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2017, 10:57:29 AM »

Resurrecting the K Class

Strange how many versions of this dive module there are, all very different.  Sorry, that diagram was too small to see.  Anyway, this time a different approach.  Instead of trying to follow build ‘instructions’ on something completely different I am re-reading the published PDF’s to try to pick up on the logic of how it works, then adapting that to a working plan to construct a similar intent with what I have in front of me.

One unfortunate issue.  One of the big O rings has split (6 years old).  I will need to replicate it.   Special material?

Back to the understanding curve.  Photo below shows a micro servo linked through to the ballast chamber.  From what I can see it is the only connection through, having an arm with linkage it appears to be for both releasing stored gas and letting water in.  I am taking it that the servo lead goes to the Rx channel for combined ‘up’ and ‘down’ ballasting commands.  ie:  Stick up releases compressed gas, down lets water in.
No apparent means of connecting snorkel pump tube as yet.



We have established that rear dive planes are automatic, via the ADF2 and one of the rear mounted servos.  Front dive planes are therefore manual, through another rear mounted servo.  Rudder uses manual Rx channel operation through 3rd rear mounted servo. Motors operated by Rx channel via ESC as in a regular boat.  Is my logic OK so far?

If so it is just the snorkel pump connections and operation to be established.  I will avoid using a Lipo, keeping it simple, and safe.

All 4 servos have to be fitted as 4 push rod holes in rear bulkhead.  Looks like I will have to use adhesive pads, and cut part of their mounting lugs off.
I may dedicate the remaining 4th rear mounted servo to lowering the funnels, at some stage. 
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2017, 01:38:20 PM »

Good quality lipos, properly charged and maintained are as safe as any other battery type.
I wouldn't write them off as they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and you would get the best runtimes for the space available.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2017, 02:02:35 PM »

O-rings are usually nitrile, you can also use silicone o-rings which tend to last longer as they not affected by exposure to the air. They are more fussy about what you use to grease them with however.  Being of American origin the o rings will be an imperial size.

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2017, 02:38:17 PM »

Thank you Subculture.  Mike of microgyros had just emailed me a UK source of O rings, Simpley Bearings. I have ordered 5 Nitrile ones, extremely close to the measured size, and allowing for imperial dimensions.  If as you say they can be affected by exposure to air then 6 years in a box on the shelf is probably the reason one failed.
Glad you mentioned "greasing" them.  I had wondered, and if so what with.

I am currently mounting the four servos.  More later.  Mike also told me that Hiltec type servos rotate clockwise, Futaba style anticlockwise, in case I need to change one to get the rods and arms re-sorted.
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