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Author Topic: Resurrecting the K Class  (Read 19384 times)

microgyros

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2017, 02:51:22 PM »


I hit reply on an ancient email about servo rotation. You should have said here what o-ring do you needed with a Vernier caliper measurement of the average slot diameter, tube inner diameter or the o-ring cross section in mm. The red 419 piece kit covers your size in 3.50 mm

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Subculture

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2017, 03:05:53 PM »

You can use either silicone grease or petroleum grease e.g. Vaseline withNitrile. Silicone rubber you need to be careful with, silicone grease is a no no with those, ptfe grease is safe, and some people use Vaseline. You don't need to ladle it on, but just a wipe of it helps make it easy to pop the caps on and off.

Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 02:45:21 PM »

Resurrecting the K Class

All your help is greatly appreciated.  :-)) 
Maybe not rocket science, but it is a black art if you have not built one before.

Moving forwards, after trying every permutation it appears the only way these servos will mount is by self adhesive pads on their sides and with part of the lugs cut off.  This leaves the underside of the tray for the ESC, the only place it will fit.  Self adhesive pads again. 

I should mention that instructions online used a single motor 3.5” diameter Ohio or a smaller Seaview dive unit.  Both radically different, and both with only 3 servo’s.  Both used lots of additional cable ties.

Back to my two motor / 4 servo tray.  It appears I can mount the ADF2 alongside the starboard servos but not quite enough room for the mini pump against the port side ones.  No room left for the Rx either, so I had to make up an additional thin aluminium tray for the other side of the front end plate.  S/adhesive pads at this stage.  At least there will be motor-grounded metal between the Rx and ESC.  Rx on the underside of this new tray, mini pump on the top.



Sad I cannot use proportional mixing for the motors.  With a scale rudder this will replicate the real K’s “turning circle of a battle cruiser”.

Snag:  The lead for the ballast servo is far too short, with the connector way up inside the tube.  The Ohio version suggests using medical hemostats, so I have ordered two pairs of locking ones. 

Battery weight will need to be a guess.  International freight rules precluded shipping the one it was designed for from States. 

But, it is now all starting to look possible.

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 04:08:42 PM »

Hi Bob, while I was reading all the bits about fitting out your drive and control suite, I was thinking of the funnels and how to raise/lower them.

Seeing that they hinge fore and aft rather than telescope like the ones Warrior had, makes for more of a challenge.

An idea I had based on using a strong waterproof servo and a bit of brass for the mechanical bits is illustrated below.

The plate the funnels are mounted on and the swing arms would be of brass of sufficient strength to resist the springs used to return the funnels to the raised position. These should be silver soldered together for maximum strength. The hinge parts and the part of the the upper deck in which the funnels sit could be brass, though the latter could be of GRP plate to reduce weight.

The servo with gear wheel drives the wheel which pulls linkages to pull the levers thus opening the funnels tilting them over. The springs then help return the funnels to the raised position and keep the tightly shut for asthetic purposes. Using a waterproof servo and brass means you would have a system that will not rust and can be built without the added consideration of making electrical equipment watertight except for one lead to the servo from your control box. If the linkages are offset like in the image then the openings can be detailed with the boiler tops or suchlike.

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2017, 05:23:03 PM »

Hi.  Thanks for taking the time to do that detailed suggestion.  I have to say that Subculture has already warned me about keeping superstructure absolutely minimum in weight, plus right from 2011 almost everyone tries putting me off the funnels idea - saying I should concentrate on getting the submarine working instead.

However, you know me by now I am sure. Some submariners like pop up periscopes. I'd like to see it submerge with funnels retracted - if at all possible - and after I have it sailing properly. 

The retract mechanism in practice is more like a forked arm that lifts, rotates, then lowers.  See animated .GIF below



I found a sequence of still shots then built it up on my Gif Animator.

I'd be happy to see it running on the surface, absolutely delighted to have it dive and resurface.  This is very much an extra . . .
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2017, 07:27:44 PM »

Resurrecting the K Class

Just had a thought.  I may be way off track here but look at the two brass tubes going through the WTC bulkhead that are coupled with a grey flexible tube in the photo below.  Nothing in the paperwork to say what this is for. 
Also, on the paperwork with the small ballast pump there is a lot about how to fit and solder the small PCB to the motor terminals, but nothing on how to connect the pump to the boat.  No other holes in ballast chamber either.



Maybe I could connect the inlet side of the pump to one of these brass tubes, then connect the outer end to my external snorkel (rear radio mast). If that is correct then with the outlet side of the pump connecting through the other bulkhead tube it just leaves somehow getting that tube back inside the ballast chamber.
Only option I can think of is to stick the outlet tube through one of the 1,0 inch vent holes in the bottom of the ballast chamber from the outside and hold it in with some sticky tape. 

It would mean pulling off the tubes every time I took the dive module out of the hull.  Can’t see any other way of plumbing it in.  Does that sound right ?

If the radio mast goes under it will fill with water, rendering the snort system inoperative.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2017, 07:38:15 PM »

Oh I see. Yes, it looks more complicated with lots of exposed mechanism that would add weight by necessity. I think that concentrating on the internals is fundementally important to the success of the project.

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Subculture

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2017, 07:45:55 PM »

Worth looking at materials like carbon fibre for control rods and linkages, it saves a lot of weight, and is stiffer than brass. Remember when it comes to items above the waterline, it's both weight and displacement that matters. Weight affects stability, displacement affects the size of your ballast tank.

salmon

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2017, 01:58:26 AM »

The brass tubes are connected to the pump. The intake line grabs air from the surface, the output goes to the ballast tank and pushes the water out.
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Albion

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2017, 05:41:44 AM »

Pump connection, run tubes from your pump connections to the brass tubes currently fitted with the u hose. U hose is for shipping so you don't flood the WTC if you forget to plumb in the pump!!!


i put a hose on my snort line with a small bore brass tube on the end. This fits inside the brass tube on my main mast. When i fit the top hull i insert the small tube up inside the mast, which is high enough to breach the water. When removing the hull top section it simply pulls out. no need to keep pulling the tube off. (see poor photo)


See photos of my ongoing M1, gives a rough idea of how the cylinder fits into the hull. Also my drive shafts which are modified bone joints with square telescoping brass tube, with small pen spring inside. These can be slipped into place once the cylinder is in the hull.


Cylinder as shown is actually for the Foxtrot and has three motors, im building a new end cap which has two motors , with shafts near the bottom of the end cap and give better alignment with the drive shafts. i have 2 independant ESC, m tronic Nano (see photo). These are used in combination with Kevin Mc's throttle jockey. This allows throttle steering of the motors. its a similar size package to the APC you have. Slight left rudder - the port motor stops, full left rudder - the port motor reverses. - i'm yet to have this in the water.


Whilst the M1 doesn't have as much superstructure as the K its still fairly large for the hull arrangement. Its taken me a while to get a balance between ballast and buoyant foam.


I need to get the revised end cap working (still shoe horning all these parts into a small space), and then re check my trim with that arrangement and the final details on including the gun.


Good luck




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Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2017, 10:03:30 AM »

Resurrecting the K Class

That was extremely interesting and useful Albion, especially on the pump plumbing.
Supplied was a bag of loose fittings, without any explanation (see photo). 
Obvious are the 4 servo pushrods and 3 (?) magnetic couplers, but the rest ? 



However one fitting is like the one you have connected your external pipes to.  I am taking it that I need to drill a hole through the top of the Lexan type tube and glue this over it, being careful not to block the hole. Hopefully Ciano will be OK as epoxy might spread and block the hole.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2017, 10:36:57 AM »

You can get some very dinky esc from China for very little cash. I can't vouch for quality, they'll probably be fine, but I guess for under a fiver you take a chance.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RC-10A-ESC-Brushed-Reverse-Speed-Controller-2KHz-5V-1A-PPM-Boat-Without-Brake-/262155482821?hash=item3d09af36c5:g:hCQAAOSwMgdX1hdm

salmon

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2017, 06:50:14 PM »

Trying to attach images....


I labeled your image with what the parts are. The piece that goes on top of the ballast tank has two paths built into it. One goes to intake and one goes to the hole (that you line up on ballast tank) so it can get the output of your pump. These are on my Gato so there may be some differences. I have 4 or 5 Sub-Drivers in use.


The CliK-Ons or Klik-Ons or whatever the magnets are called are good for most connectors, you just have to make sure your planes and rudder move easily. If not you can make modifications to make them stronger. I included some pictures of a magnet connector I designed to work with the air or ballast pump for quick connects. This same design is used for some planes that are more resistant.


The strain relief gets attached to the bulkhead and the switch wire runs through it to prevent yanking it out when separating it from the battery. I had to make my own (I lost the original).
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 11:23:09 AM »

Resurrecting the K Class

Many thanks Albion.  From confused to information overload.  Having seen several Engel piston type dive units this is very different, and I am trying to plan ahead to avoid dumb mistakes that I may regret later. 

I believe I may have to operate my servo arms inwards as there is insufficient space as in the illustration, but guidance to which rod guides go where was a boon.  I will fit the air pipework as detailed, leaving plenty of slack to get the motors sub assembly out without disconnecting the pipes.   I do not have metal O ring inserts for the pushrods, just holes which I assume have O rings in them. Very tight fit.

The priority is to get it working, so I will leave some improvements for later development.  a)  Use an NiMh battery to avoid LiPo / LiPo Guard complexities.  b)  Use the single ESC supplied until I can find & test dual ESC / mixer units that will fit.  c)  Whilst building superstructure in very thin Plasticard to allow for later addition of working funnels.

Should I fit an Engel type magnetic on/off switch to reduce number of end cap removals lakeside?  No switch supplied other than on the ESC, although Albion shows a switch on his end cap.

While waiting for the Corona Rx and Hemostats to arrive I need to build a lined ply box as a test tank.  The hull is too long for the bath.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 02:13:27 PM »

I use Kevin McLeod's magnet switch of KMC Designs. He is out of Canada and . It is nice and small and very reliable. I will look up his information and post it or if you visit my link, he checks there or at subcommittee.com. Sub-driver website has a retail section under a new owner, but someone who is very knowledgeable of our hobby and a great person to deal with.
Also, I have a build you can look at. https://forum.sub-driver.com/forum/builder-competitions/1743-newbie-no-more-building-the-revell-1-72-gato?1652-Newbie-no-more-Building-the-Revell-1-72-Gato=
It was my first sub, but it goes through building the WTC. Including testing the wtc for leaks. Maybe it will help you on this build.
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Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 07:43:53 PM »

Very interesting build link Salmon, particularly on the motor compartment.  I now recall a snag we had when I bought the WTC.  The motor section is designed for a 72MHz Sombra Labs SL8.  That frequency is not permitted in Britain, and 40MHz Rx's will not fit in that tight space.  Hence my now having to redesign so much from scratch.
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Subculture

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 07:47:37 PM »

The corona should be a reasonable match of the sombra rx. Difficult to get an 8 channel rx much smaller with standard size plugs.

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2017, 08:00:07 PM »

I just put the motermachienraum back together after a moter shaft seal repair...your driver is like mine in set up only bigger with 2 more pushrod ports..i have some suggestions..

1 I found the reciver had to go on top.otherwise when the room was pushed in the servo wire connecters hit the vent/blow servo and made it unable to fit in... the 1st time I used zipties..to hold everthing down/secure..this time I used gm engine sealant I can give the pn# and a gm dealer near you will have it ..it has good holding strength and is easy to clean/scrape off... I started with my reciver and added 1 component at a time as I waited 24 hrs for the gms to cure 1st...

2nd   i drilled holes in the sheet metal for ease of instaltion and routeing for lpb/air pump/snort system(what ever you prefer to call it...) and other componants as well.this made things easyer for me..

3rd    wherever possible I mounted the adf2 and lipo gard to have empty pockets behind it to stuff the excess servo leads into for neatness

4th I ran the lpb pipeing next to my stern&bow plane rods..neither the 1st time or this time do they case any interfearance....

5th I used 2mm banana jacks to run the power&ground to the machienraum assy..they cant be mixed up and I put a slice of heat shrink over ithe wire put the 2 ends together and shrink over the connection..note I already have sleeved the jack ends so there is no bare metal to chaff/ground out against the sheetmetal bulkhead supports..

as to the sugestions I have drooling over your wtc this is what I would see if can be done

1 the rear 2 servo's would be stepped higher than the forward pair..the rear servo's would have the control arm/horns inbord and go to the 2 pushrod exits that are higher and inbetween your lpb/snort/pass through pipe ends..

2 the forward pair of servo's would have the horns outboard to go to the remaing pushrod ports

the area under the servo tray is where I plan to mount my 2 mtronic's viper 10's for u821's motermachinenraum..I am going to attempt to fit a action p82 moter/mixer into the space along with the lipogard and adf2 and another snort pump..yours should be big enough to mount cased esc's as I can fit 2 cased ones in theory there on my smaller one..

I hope this helps sort out the puzzle a little better.i know my 1st time around was a project in frustration for a time...so that's normal..hopfuly these give you some idea's..and while I am not at albacore or subculture's level I am a beginner as well..i have yet to do final submerged trim due to a few misshaps along the way...I think as we gain experience we tend to forget the beginning stages and take for granted how daunting it is the 1st time and so some advise from other more experienced operators is lost in translation..i find pictures to be my best teacher in some things..regards shane
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2017, 12:58:56 PM »

Resurrecting the K Class

I have spent many hours of head scratching figuring out how to assemble this without cutting up the hardware, but . . .
It is not the manufacturers problem that I am obliged to use 40 MHz in the UK. However, the most compact 40 MHz Rx is far too large to fit in there. My only option was to do some Dremel reconstruction to widen and deepen the recess in the resin block.  The top edge of the Rx no longer fouls the tube, and the servos now virtually sandwich it.  By almost straightening out the 90 degree “Z” step in the alloy mount the servos are lowered by about 3 mm which now gives just enough clearance between the ends of the shortened servo arms and the tube wall.

Original mounting block & tray


After reworking the cast block for larger 40 MHz Receiver


40 MHz Corona Rx and servos just fit.


The snort pump will go on my new bracket in front of the circular plate, and the ESC under it.  With a tiny rudder and props only 25 mm apart twin ESC’s with mixer would enable a more practical turning circle.  Can two 1A Action P82’s handle type 280 motors though?

More components now on order.  The special waterproof 2A on/off switch with boot, which I have now ordered from the USA.  I also need a 7.1V battery, and am advised that 1800 mAH should be sufficient.  2 mm ID silicone tubing for the air pump.
More 1/6 inch brass rod bought as even with the servos are in their designed position two pushrods are too short to reach the forward pair.

So, plan made.  Dry fit everything to ensure it fits.  I will need to polish the rods and make them easier to slide, form the rods to shape, then fit them.  I intend to connect up the electrics, to make sure it all works, before setting the servos in hot glue.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2017, 03:34:29 AM »

while I don't claim to be an expert ..I know the moters in my 2 inch s/d are for sure 280's ..yours must be bigger..most all the s/d'si have seen are equipped with mtronic's micro viper 10's... nautalus drydock carrys caseless micro viper 10 esc's...I will be getting 2 for the other moter room for my other s/d to go with the p82 mixer I got from action electronic's.... I don't think the action p82 1a's can handle those moters as they will pull over 1 amp current underload...I am using 2  7.4 lipo 1300mha's in parallel for 2600 mha total that's the biggest I could find so far...and that's was what was recommended by caswell when I bought it..so only 1800 mha seems to be a very small gas tank.. for full answers to your question's I recommend joining the subdriver's fourum at http://forum.sub-driver.com/forum.php...david merriman is an active member and since he made your wtc you could get it from the horses mouth so to speak..im on there as well.. good luck and keep going..you will sort it out..
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2017, 04:30:29 AM »

Here's my revised module. The small Mtronics mico viper "caseless" ESC are attached to the drive motors and wrapped in Black heat shrink, you can set the set buttons sticking out.

Next to the receiver you can see the Throttle jockey , which is the prop mixer. its tiny
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2017, 08:55:28 AM »

Resurrecting the K Class

Thank you for the info guys.  It seems there are a large number of very different variants of these systems, so I am establishing generic build principles rather than specifics on the version I have. 
Nautilus Drydocks is an interesting site, but I could not see caseless Mtroniks ESC’s on there, nor on the Mtroniks web site. I will keep searching.

I did see reference to “280” motors on the smaller dive modules, but you are probably correct in that mine are not these and it might be highly risky to try P68A one amp ESCs for them.  At present I will stick with the single ESC supplied until I can be sure. 

On battery advice, I can get a single 7.4V  3300 mAh 35C pack, which looks the largest I can cram into the battery compartment.  Weighs 175 gm.  I am dubious about LiPo’s, especially about wiring them in parallel.

For now I will concentrate on the servo pushrods, which will need work to get them to slide in the seals, and to form the bends required to attach them to the servo arms. 
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Subculture

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 01:01:11 PM »

Think about how long you will want to operate your boat for. I rarely see modellers operate their boats for more than an hour or so. So generally you can get away with a smaller pack than you think.

Bob K

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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 01:39:30 PM »

Subculture:  All my other boats are surface vessels, which I run for around two hours or more.  However, I am new to LiPo's and will probably keep pulling it out every 15 minutes to check the voltage.  I would imagine weight will be more critical than capacity, but do not know what battery/s would have been supplied if they could be shipped from America.  The other unknown is what motors these are, and their full load current.
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Re: Resurrecting the K Class
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2017, 02:01:47 PM »


...I am new to LiPo's and will probably keep pulling it out every 15 minutes to check the voltage...
No you won't. You'd use a mini led bar graph instead.
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