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Author Topic: HMS Agincourt build project  (Read 89066 times)

Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #450 on: February 25, 2018, 08:13:18 AM »

Jonathan (Akira);  Looking in that book, you are correct.  It clearly shows bilge keels in various of the section views.
That kind of settles it.  Bilge keels need to be fitted.  Such keels from that era appear to be markedly curved, so I will try to replicate that.  Another challenge on my "to do" list !
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Akira

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #451 on: February 25, 2018, 01:47:14 PM »

Bob,
 Using the technique I described, I beleive that if you were to plot out the bilge keel, measured as a constant distance from the keel's centerline, the bilge keel will APPEAR to be significantly curved when viewed in profile, but is in reality a straight line. I hope this makes sense. perhaps someone else can explain it better.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #452 on: February 25, 2018, 02:36:08 PM »

Bob, as you are probably aware, bilge keels were usually fitted on the turn of the bilge and their size was dictated by not protruding below the bottom of the ship or beyond the side of the hull so they would not normally be damaged if the ship touched the bottom or was alongside a vertical dock. This line was usually curved in appearance.

Probably the best way to experiment would be to tape a thin picece of stripwood along the turn of the bilge and see what sort of natural curve it takes up. It will probably look right then.

In any event, who is to prove you wrong?!

Colin
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Netleyned

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #453 on: February 25, 2018, 03:19:41 PM »

The same guy who will be counting the rivets :D :D
Ned
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #454 on: February 25, 2018, 03:30:00 PM »

Akira:  I know exactly what you mean.  It will produce a curve on the material, even though following a projected straight line.

Colin:  Having fitted these before on other ships, I know they must be contained within the volume of the sectional hull curve.  ie: not protrude beyond the side of the hull, nor beneath it.  This in itself goes a long way to define its position and shape. 

Ned:  Any rivets counters are welcome to build one better themselves.  (Tee hee !)
Definitive information prior to the RN conversion are quite limited, which gives me scope to make reasonable approximation where exact info is lacking.  Plans and most photos are of the converted ship as operated by the Royal Navy.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #455 on: February 25, 2018, 05:22:32 PM »

Hi Bob


Great that you’re going for it! I would recommend Geoff’ method of a 90 degree angle strip of brass so you can screw it into the hull- I wish I had done it on my Invincible in this method as I think mine might be a little fragile if I’m a little rough with her docking!
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Nick B

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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #456 on: February 25, 2018, 06:56:47 PM »

Hi Nick.  Did I miss something here?  Been searching on Mayhem for that method.  Not sure how you "force" a brass angle into the curve needed.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #457 on: February 26, 2018, 03:19:29 AM »

No it’s on his Invincible build. Geoff showed me his model at Warwick last year with the brass bilge keels.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #458 on: February 26, 2018, 08:32:28 AM »

If you use "L" shaped brass there is actually very little force required to bend it into shape as the bilge line is a natural curve well within the ability to bend the brass. Its a bit like putting a long plank on the bilge as it naturally conforms to the shape of the hull.

I drilled small holes and used small screws to fix the brass bilge keel - final fixing was done with Araldite and the screws. Sometimes a small metal plate on the inside of the hull at each end can give a very firm attachment point.

It may sound awkward but in practice its really easy. Start in the middle and the it just follows the natural curve. Once fitted I then fill the angle with car body filler and you have a nice triangular shape.

Yes, definitely fir bilge keels as I'm not aware of a single battleship of that era that didn't have them as it both strengthened the hull at a key point and from a modelling perspective gives you something to grip!

Bob, if you do this I'd join the two hull halves together but with a small spacer to keep the bilge line true then cut it in half with a hacksaw once dry.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #459 on: February 26, 2018, 08:54:15 AM »

Thank you Geoff.  I have ordered some thin brass angle, and will definitely give that a go.  10 x 10 x 1 mm thick.
It does seem a "stretch" to bend though.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #460 on: February 26, 2018, 09:01:49 AM »

Bob,

You can always anneal it first - just heat it with a gas blowlamp until it glows and work you way along. It makes it much easier to bend but on ID and Invincible I was able to cold bend it as the curve is very gentle.

I read somewhere that the distance from the keel line is the same all the way along - I'm not quite convinced though - basically it follows the water flow round the hull hence the shape.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build - Bilge Keels
« Reply #461 on: March 02, 2018, 07:45:16 PM »

Credits
Well, I have only been building model boats for less than seven years, but I am indebted to those whose experience and welcome advice have lifted my often over-ambitious projects towards a successful conclusion I might not have reached on my own.  Joining Mayhem has made a big difference, and the many friends I have met at events.  A big thank you to all.

Bilge Keels
Thank you Geoff for your tips on building bilge keels.  Despite the large apparent curve when viewed from the side the 10 x 10 x 1 brass angle did not have to bend much at all to produce that curve.  It extends 450 mm each side of the centre join, as per several line drawings of the hull.

In practice it naturally followed the contour contained between the planes of the hull sides and flat keel, with the keel plate keeping a right angle to the hull surface.  Fitting them with the hulls joined as suggested, then sawing on the join line, will keep the lines looking nicely continuous.  Not sure if I need to extend the depth a tad. I will decide later.  The photo is almost edge-on to the bilge keel plate.  Some Isopon filler should smooth the angle contours later.



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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #462 on: March 02, 2018, 08:22:06 PM »

I suspect that'll more than do. Very nice!


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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #463 on: March 02, 2018, 10:35:51 PM »

Its definitely an important step in the whole project. It went right and you can put the experience behind you.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #464 on: March 05, 2018, 07:48:19 AM »

Many thanks to C-3PO.  His design for the T.A.R.G.E.T. bearing control is now greatly advanced.
See  http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56800.msg634468/topicseen.html#msg634468

I am currently working on the fixed barbette outers which will incorporate the mounting of the stepper motors, and where applicable gun fire modules.
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build - Barbette Outers
« Reply #465 on: March 10, 2018, 10:52:12 AM »

Barbette Outers

I bought three sheets of 600 x 600 “twenty thou” (0.5 mm) Plasticard to laminate up the fixed barbettes.  To mark it up I had to wait until everyone was out then set up my pasting table in the lounge.

However, I was not satisfied with the result of laminating 80mm or 40mm strips using EMA Plastic Weld.  The resultant tubes, after four layers applied, were still very squishy and I could hear the adhesive cracking when I lightly pressed them.  Not man enough for the job.  I do have a 1m length of thin-wall steel tube of the right diameter, but would prefer plastic for various reasons.

So, abandoning the laminating I have ordered a 910mm length of 83 dia ABS tubing from EMA Model Supplies which I intend to cut into lengths.  A small amount of laminating will be needed but now I will be starting off with rigid tube that can support the gun fire and TARGET components with reasonable concentricity.
The mounting of both the gun fire modules, and stepper motors, require more precision, and I have to fit wiring in the space between the tubes.

Waiting for the tube to arrive.
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #466 on: March 10, 2018, 02:59:27 PM »

Hi Bob


I use something similar too for barbettes because of the same reason- the laminating of plastic into a circle is weak and will eventually break. Something solid like ABS or Acrylic Perspex is perfect as it’s almost perfectly circular and cuts into lengths with relative ease. I’ve used it on both Dreadnought and Invincible for barbettes and on my Dad’s Adamant as the funnel. No point struggling especially when you’ve got seven to make!
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #467 on: March 10, 2018, 06:14:28 PM »

My experiences with laminating thin layers is that it warps and can also get slumps where the plastic weld is concentrated. I chose to do my funnels as a turning or machined acrylic for that reason. I look forward to your efforts and wish you a seamless and undetectable tidy up of the lounge post model making period  :}
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #468 on: March 14, 2018, 08:18:34 PM »

The ABS precision tubing has arrived so I can make a start on the fixed outers for the barbettes.  It is 2.4mm smaller diameter than the thin wall steel tubing so will need some exterior laminating to get it to fit the deck holes. 
It is nicely very rigid.
By necessity there needs to be a gap between the barbette outer and the rotating inner module to allow wiring due to the stepper motor being underneath on the centreline.  I intend using thin brass strip for the thermistor wiring, plus a servo lead and thin LED wires.

Thermal Lagging

I have hit a slight snag.  I need some heat resistant fabric to clad the gun fire thermistors in to prevent heat damaging the turret interiors.  Going way back you could get plumbers heat mats in a woven material that was quite thin and ideal for the job.  Now these all seem about 8 mm thick and barely bendable.  Maybe post-asbestos modern equivalents?  Useless.

Anyone got some thin “vintage” plumbers mat that I can wrap the small thermistor blocks in to withstand 220 ‘C, or something similar?   
Maybe some of our steam engine enthusiasts can suggest some suitable lagging material?

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SailorGreg

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #469 on: March 14, 2018, 09:15:06 PM »

Perhaps something like this will suit your needs? I used this to lag the boiler of my steam launch under the wood cladding.


Greg

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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #471 on: March 14, 2018, 11:56:01 PM »

Bob...the second option...Kayowool would offer a few advantages and similar costing

1. it is able to be soaked in water then to compress to take a permanent shape and dry out thus maintaining the profile [obviously limits apply]
2. has a markedly higher thermal resistance
3. can be wrapped in a Alfoil sheet to improve strength

So whilst real wool for an Oz sheep's back is best  :-))......not so for this application  as the ...Kayowool is synthetic  %)

Derek
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #472 on: March 15, 2018, 08:58:08 AM »

Bob,

I just went to B&Q and got a cheap plumbers matt (Circa £6). Yes its a little stiff but its only about 1/16" thick and can be readily cut and folded and can take temperatures up to 400 C. To minimise the volume of the primary insulation I wrap it in very thin copper wire thread, as a binding, so I can pull it all tight. The secondary insulation is just loft insulation which is stuffed in every orifice I can fill. This is an advantage with turrets where the roof comes off.

I'll Google the other items mentioned as some of it looks interesting.

Cheers

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #473 on: March 15, 2018, 09:08:20 AM »

Thank you Geoff.  I am trying to follow your methodology as closely as possible.  I will drive over to B&Q to have a look.  Incidentally I just cut open the thick Rothernberger mat and it appears to contain "Ecomab" paper felt-like infill, maybe similar to the Kayowool material mentioned previously.

Off to B&Q . . .
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Re: HMS Agincourt build project
« Reply #474 on: March 15, 2018, 10:10:59 AM »

I used a 2mm version of Kayo round the boiler in my torpedo boat before cladding with 0.5mm ply. tacked it to the brass with the water based glue you use for the rope door seal on log burners.
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